PonoMusic by Neil Young

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PonoMusic by Neil Young

Postby Hammer_Time » Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:22 pm

http://www.ponomusic.com/

No, its not "PORNO" music, it's "PONO Music"!!! :wink: :twisted: ( have no idea where the name Pono came from to be honest... ) :P

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WHAT ARE THE SPECIFICATIONS OF THE PONOPLAYER?

The PonoPlayer was designed to meet or exceed the audio quality of portable devices and many home audio components:

• It is available in yellow or black with a soft touch finish. It weighs 4.5 ounces (128 grams) and comes in a box with:

• A 120/240VAC adapter/charger
• A micro USB cable for charging and syncing files from a Mac or PC
• 64GB of internal memory and a removable 64GB microSD card included (128GB total)
• Free downloadable desktop software (for Mac and PC) with a built-in music store to browse, purchase, manage and sync Pono certified tracks as well as others
• A user guide

• The dimensions of the PonoPlayer are 5” (H) x 2” (W) x 1” (D)
• It is powered by a built-in Li-Ion rechargeable battery for all-day listening (about 8 hours).

• It has very easy-to-use controls:

• The O button turns the player on and off.
• The + and - buttons adjust the volume.
• The illuminated color touch display lets you scroll through your music by album, song, artist, ..., and play, stop, fast forward, ...

It has a 1-year warranty and will retail for $399 at http://www.PonoMusic.com (Available through Kickstarter.com within the PonoMusic campaign, for a limited time, for $300)


I'M AN AUDIOPHILE. EXPLAIN WHAT IS SO SPECIAL ABOUT THE PONOPLAYER TECHNOLOGY

The PonoPlayer was designed with a “no compromises” approach to sound quality. We partnered with the engineering team at Ayre (http://www.ayre.com) to include some of their world-class audio technology in our PonoPlayer. The Ayre team describes their contribution to the PonoPlayer design as follows:

• The digital filter used in the PonoPlayer has minimal phase, and no unnatural (digital sounding) pre-ringing. All sounds made (including music) always have reflections and/or echoes after the initial sound. There is no sound in nature that has any echo or reflection before the sound, which is what conventional linear-phase digital filters do. This is one reason that digital sound has a reputation for sounding "unnatural" and harsh.

• All circuitry is zero-feedback. Feedback can only correct an error after it has occurred, which means that it can never correct for all errors. By using proprietary ultra-linear circuitry with wide bandwidth and low output impedance, there is no need for unnatural sounding feedback.

• The DAC (Digital-to-Analog Converter) chip being used is widely recognized in the audio and engineering community as one of the best sounding DAC chips available today.

• The output buffer used to drive the headphones is fully discrete so that all individual parameters and circuit values and parts quality can be fully optimized for the absolute finest sound quality. The output impedance is very low so that the PonoPlayer delivers perfectly flat frequency response and wide volume range using virtually any set of headphones


IS PONOMUSIC A NEW AUDIO FORMAT? WHAT ABOUT PONOMUSIC QUALITY?

No. We want to be very clear that PonoMusic is not a new audio file format or standard. It is an end-to-end ecosystem for music lovers to get access to and enjoy their favorite music in the highest resolution possible for that song or album. The music in the PonoMusic.com store is sold and downloaded in industry standard audio file formats.
The PonoMusic Store uses FLAC (Free Lossless Audio Codec) audio format as its standard, for compatibility, although the PonoPlayer can play most popular high-resolution music formats from other sources. PonoMusic has a quality spectrum, ranging from really good to really great, depending on the quality of the available master recordings:

• CD lossless quality recordings: 1411 kbps (44.1 kHz/16 bit) FLAC files
• High-resolution recordings: 2304 kbps (48 kHz/24 bit) FLAC files
• Higher-resolution recordings: 4608 kbps (96 kHz/24 bit) FLAC files
• Ultra-high resolution recordings: 9216 kbps (192 kHz/24 bit) FLAC files


WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PONOMUSIC AND MP3'S?

Generally speaking, mp3 files have a bit rate of 192kbps or 256kbps. These are highly compressed files, and are smaller in size than higher resolution music files. The good news is that you can keep a lot of them in a small amount of storage on a portable player or mobile device. The bad news is that they’ve lost a lot of the musical information that often reveals the most pleasant and satisfying aspects of the music – mostly it is the sense of realism, and dynamics, and detail that higher resolution recordings typically capture.

On the “low end” of higher resolution music (CD lossless, 16 bit/44.1kHz), PonoMusic files have about 6 times more musical information than a typical mp3. With ultra-high quality resolution recordings (24 bit/192kHz), the difference between a PonoMusic digital file and an mp3 is about 30 times more data from which your player reconstructs the “song”.


CAN I PLAY DIGITAL MUSIC FILES I ALREADY OWN ON MY PONOPLAYER?

Yes, you can and it will probably sound better on the PonoPlayer than you've ever heard it.

The PonoPlayer is designed to play PonoMusic with stunning clarity. However, the player can play almost any kind of music track including FLAC, ALAC, mp3, WAV, AIFF, AAC (unprotected).

What this really means is the PonoPlayer can play all your digital music, and all of it will sound great.


Yes, it is expensive, but no more so than your Apple iPod with equivalent storage. The hw of this player is MUCH better than any iPod as detailed above... worth every penny imho! Yes the PONO certified digital "albums" cost between $15 to $25 to download, but remember the player can play just about any kind of music format out there and the hw alone will make it sound better than your typical cheap mp3 player. If you do get your hands on high quality, high bitrate FLAC (or similar) recordings, it will sound even that much better of course...

Don't forget to buy some quality earpbuds/headphones for this thing ( none are included but they should offer a matched and tuned set for extra cost - perhaps they will in the future ), such as Sennheiser or other high end brand name.

I can't wait to hear one myself, many Kudos to Neil Young for bringing audiophile or near-audiophile sound quality to the portable market. 8) Perhaps it is slightly over-hyped in the FAQ's above, but the hw specs alone sound pretty damn impressive for a portable player, can't wait for the reviews to pour in...

Image

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQcnedcNTes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An2a1_Do_fc

Old man look at my life,
I'm a lot like you were.
Old man look at my life,
I'm a lot like you were.

Old man look at my life,
Twenty four
and there's so much more
Live alone in a paradise
That makes me think of two.

Love lost, such a cost,
Give me things
that don't get lost.
Like a coin that won't get tossed
Rolling home to you.

Old man take a look at my life
I'm a lot like you
I need someone to love me
the whole day through
Ah, one look in my eyes
and you can tell that's true.

Lullabies, look in your eyes,
Run around the same old town.
Doesn't mean that much to me
To mean that much to you.

I've been first and last
Look at how the time goes past.
But I'm all alone at last.
Rolling home to you.

Old man take a look at my life
I'm a lot like you
I need someone to love me
the whole day through
Ah, one look in my eyes
and you can tell that's true.

Old man look at my life,
I'm a lot like you were.
Old man look at my life,
I'm a lot like you were.

Recorded 23rd February 1971
BBC Television Theatre,
Shepherd's Bush, London.


music = feelings that you can hear

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u925g6CgKuw

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Re: PonoMusic by Neil Young

Postby Sauron_Daz » Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:14 am

Hammer_Time wrote:Don't forget to buy some quality earpbuds/headphones for this thing ( none are included but they should offer a matched and tuned set for extra cost - perhaps they will in the future ), such as Sennheiser or other high end brand name.


I'd say that's a must for a device like that!
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Re: PonoMusic by Neil Young

Postby Hammer_Time » Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:13 pm

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/04/ ... 2-million/ 8) :D :whistle:

Neil Young’s music-player Kickstarter closes at $6.2 million

PonoPlayer becomes third-biggest KS project ever, poised to launch in October.

PonoPlayer, the Toblerone-shaped portable media player launched last month by classic rocker Neil Young, closed its Kickstarter campaign yesterday with a grand total of $6.2 million. That number makes Pono the third-highest Kickstarter campaign ever, trailing the Pebble smartwatch and the Ouya video game console.


After blasting off to the tune of roughly $1.6 million in one day, the player, which staked its reputation on replicating "studio-quality" sound by way of lossless, high-frequency audio and hardware engineering, maintained its sales momentum by adding a slew of limited-edition sales options. The most prominent was the "Artist Signature" series, which came in a whopping 31 varieties and included laser-engraved signatures and hand-selected, pre-loaded albums by a particular artist or band, with offerings from Elton John, The Eagles, Metallica, Arcade Fire, and plenty in between. Yes, you could buy both Crosby, Stills & Nash and Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young versions of the Pono.


Keep on Rockin in the Free World!! :whistle: 8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v64cQnsIa_Q

Lyrics:

There's colors on the street
Red, white and blue
People shufflin' their feet
People sleepin' in their shoes
But there's a warnin' sign
on the road ahead
There's a lot of people sayin'
we'd be better off dead
Don't feel like Satan,
but I am to them
So I try to forget it,
any way I can.

Keep on rockin' in the free world,
Keep on rockin' in the free world
Keep on rockin' in the free world,
Keep on rockin' in the free world.

I see a woman in the night
With a baby in her hand
Under an old street light
Near a garbage can
Now she puts the kid away,
and she's gone to get a hit
She hates her life,
and what she's done to it
There's one more kid
that will never go to school
Never get to fall in love,
never get to be cool.

Keep on rockin' in the free world,
Keep on rockin' in the free world
Keep on rockin' in the free world,
Keep on rockin' in the free world.

We got a thousand points of light
For the homeless man
We got a kinder, gentler,
Machine gun hand
We got department stores
and toilet paper
Got styrofoam boxes
for the ozone layer
Got a man of the people,
says keep hope alive
Got fuel to burn,
got roads to drive.

Keep on rockin' in the free world,
Keep on rockin' in the free world
Keep on rockin' in the free world,
Keep on rockin' in the free world.




Neil Percival Young OC, (born November 12, 1945)
is a Canadian singer-songwriter. He began
performing in a group covering Shadows
instrumentals in Canada in 1960, before moving to
California in 1966, where he co-founded the band
Buffalo Springfield along with Stephen Stills and
Richie Furay, later joining Crosby, Stills &
Nash as a fourth member in 1969. He forged a
successful and acclaimed solo career, releasing
his first album in 1968; his career has since
spanned over 40 years and 35 studio albums, with a
continual and uncompromising exploration of
musical styles. The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame
website describes Young as "one of rock and
roll's greatest songwriters and performers". He
has been inducted into the Hall of Fame twice:
first as a solo artist in 1995, and second as a
member of Buffalo Springfield in 1997. Young's
work is characterized by his distinctive guitar
work, deeply personal and signature alto or high
tenor singing voice. Although he accompanies
himself on several different instruments,
including piano and harmonica, his idiosyncratic
electric and clawhammer acoustic guitar playing
are the defining characteristics of a varyingly
ragged and melodic sound. While Young has
experimented with differing music styles,
including swing and electronic music throughout a
varied career, his best known work usually falls
into two primary styles: acoustic (folk and
country rock) and electric (amplified hard rock,
very often in collaboration with the band Crazy
Horse). Young has also adopted elements from newer
styles such as alternative rock and grunge. His
influence on the latter caused some to dub him the
"Godfather of Grunge". Young has directed (or
co-directed) a number of films using the pseudonym
Bernard Shakey, including Journey Through the Past
(1973), Rust Never Sleeps (1979), Human Highway
(1982), Greendale (2003), and CSNY/Déjà Vu
(2008). He is currently working on a documentary
about electric car technology, tentatively titled
Linc/Volt. The project involves a 1959 Lincoln
Continental converted to hybrid technology, which
Young plans to drive to Washington, D.C. as an
environmentalist example to lawmakers there. Young
is an outspoken advocate for environmental issues
and the welfare of small farmers, having
co-founded in 1985 the benefit concert Farm Aid.
In 1986, Young helped found The Bridge School, an
educational organization for children with severe
verbal and physical disabilities, and its annual
supporting Bridge School Benefit concerts,
together with his wife Pegi Young (née Morton).
Young has three children: sons Zeke (born during
his relationship with actress Carrie Snodgress)
and Ben, who were diagnosed with cerebral palsy,
and daughter Amber Jean who, like Young himself,
has epilepsy. Young lives on his ranch in La
Honda, California. Although he has lived in
northern California since the 1970s and sings as
frequently about U.S. themes and subjects as he
does about his native country, he has retained his
Canadian citizenship. On July 14, 2006, Young was
awarded the Order of Manitoba, and on December 30,
2009, was made an Officer of the Order of Canada.


Respect.
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Re: PonoMusic by Neil Young

Postby Silver » Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:54 pm

Interessting Ive been looking for highend PMP's. Found one that looked interessting but cost something like $600 and $1200 IIRC.
I might get one someday but right now its a bit much lol.
Also want some Bowers and Wilkins P7 headphones to go with it :mrgreen:

Found it but Audiophile PMP's are too expensive :evil:

Astell&Kern AK100 Mastering Quality Sound (MQS) Portable System $699.00
Astell&Kern AK100 Mark-2 MQS Portable Single DAC Hi-Fi Audio System - 3 ohms $799.00
Astell&Kern AK120 Mastering Quality Sound Portable Dual DAC Hi-Fi Audio System $1,299.00
Astell&Kern AK120 TITAN MQS Duel DAC Audio System $1,499.00
Astell&Kern AK240 Mastering Quality Sound Dual DAC (Gun Metal) $2,499.00

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Re: PonoMusic by Neil Young

Postby Hammer_Time » Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:59 pm

Thanks for that Silver, was not aware those higher end portable music players existed!

As you say though, the price is kinda high...

At least Neil Young's PonoPlayer is only $400 USD ( base version ) ... not really that outrageous considering the hw inside of it and design etc.

I await its launch ( scheduled for this October ) and some in-depth reviews on it! :D
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Re: PonoMusic by Neil Young

Postby Fuzz » Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:42 pm

I would think the reviews will go something like this. How the F#@ am I supposed to put this triangle in my skinny jeans pocket???
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Re: PonoMusic by Neil Young

Postby Hammer_Time » Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:17 pm

Same as you stuff a damn Toblerone bar down there currently... jeez... must I answer everything!!??

"Triangles are the new sausages!!" - Eddie Van Halen :twisted: :lol:

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Note: That is not what I look for in a rock star, but since the topic came up here... :shock: :moon: :incoming: :lol: :whistle:

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BooYah!!! :

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( sorry this got a bit out of control here, I realize this is not "The Lounge" so the rules should be stricter here... dangnabit!! Must not drink and post... :scout: )
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Re: PonoMusic by Neil Young

Postby Silver » Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:14 pm

Fuzz wrote:I would think the reviews will go something like this. How the F#@ am I supposed to put this triangle in my skinny jeans pocket???

lol it will look hard.. and if a girl puts it a front pocket it will just look too wierd :lol:
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Re: PonoMusic by Neil Young

Postby Fuzz » Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:07 am

Is that a Prono in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?
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Re: PonoMusic by Neil Young

Postby Hammer_Time » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:00 am

:mrgreen: :lol:

It's a Toblerone bar actually, I have to save up to afford a nice Pono!! :scout: :lol:

You know how fraudulent sellers on eBay advertise things like iPods then ship the buyer a cardboard or wooden imitation in the retail box? I can see lots of losers on eBay selling "Pono Players" for cheap, but then simply send a Toblerone bar to the buyer instead... :P :whistle:

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Re: PonoMusic by Neil Young

Postby mhudon » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:42 am

Toblerone... hummmmmm!!!!!

I have the supreme privilege to listen to my music on a sexy Cowon S9 for the past three years. Same model pictured below:

Image

There's a lot of positive review about it out there if your interested. It's not too expensive and provides a lot of pleasure to it's owner. Excellent sound quality and sound level, great selection of customisation, spectral battery life if used for music, good when watching movies, ok when playing flash games.

A very good note to the amoled display that is surprisingly good for watching movies. Entertain your childs when you try to finish a good meal and wine bottle at your favorite restaurant (you can also lock them in your car trunk). Positive mention for the tough built too.

Lot's of other Cowon models were produced since it's been introduced, but it's still my favorite player. I also bought a cheaper Cowon player to my wife and sound quality was again very good. All in all when choosing a Cowon player, one can't go wrong in the sound quality department. If you can put your hands on one, don't hesitate!

http://www.cowonglobal.com/product_wide ... page_1.php
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Re: PonoMusic by Neil Young

Postby Fuzz » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:54 am

I spent a lot of time looking at my options, knowing I didn't want to give Apple or Sony money. I considered some expensive options before realizing, screw it I'm going to be listening through subpar speakers(headphones) I want something cheap and light that sounds good enough. Anything better is a waste for portable audio.

So I bought this!
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http://www.sandisk.com/products/music-v ... /clip-zip/

$30, plus another $30 for 32GB microSD card. I put rockbox on it (which is pretty much a requirement) and I have a super small lightweight long lasting audio player. Its actually got pretty decent sound quality, and with Rockbox's EQ settings including a compressor! you can really tune it to your headphones. Normally I would stay the hell away from digital eq's, but Rockbox's are great. Physical buttons are a must for me, I can feel my way to any change I need without removing it from my pocket. And if I lose it or break it? $60 is not much to cry over. Can I watch movies on it? No, but that's what other devices are for. Then i don't have to suck battery power from them for basic music.
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Re: PonoMusic by Neil Young

Postby Hammer_Time » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:17 am

Quit spamming your music players guys!! :fist: :mrgreen: :wink: :lol: :whistle:

Pono Player FTW!! :twisted:

Edit: Martin, your link was not working due to [B] tags around the url, so I removed the Bold tags for you in your post and the link is now working, just fyi...
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Re: PonoMusic by Neil Young

Postby Sauron_Daz » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:24 pm

Fuzz wrote:Is that a Prono in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?

:lol: :lol:
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Re: PonoMusic by Neil Young

Postby Sauron_Daz » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:25 pm

Fuzz wrote:I spent a lot of time looking at my options, knowing I didn't want to give Apple or Sony money.


Good! They don't get any of mine as well.
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Re: PonoMusic by Neil Young

Postby mhudon » Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:04 pm

Sauron_Daz wrote:
Fuzz wrote:I spent a lot of time looking at my options, knowing I didn't want to give Apple or Sony money.

Good! They don't get any of mine as well.

I'm a proud (and sexy) subscriber of the anything but iPod website. A great site to discover cool alternative from other brands. It was (is) my way to protest against the fact that so many audio device are equipped with docks accommodating only Apple product. Viva la Revolution :fist: :fist: :fist: !!!
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Re: PonoMusic by Neil Young

Postby Hammer_Time » Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:25 am

Found this older article that actually reviews/previews the sound quality of the Pono player:

http://www.antiquiet.com/music/2014/03/ ... mpression/

HANDS-ON WITH NEIL YOUNG’S PONO SYSTEM

THE EVENT: I was invited to a special event to try out this new PonoPlayer, told to bring my own set of headphones to show how I could “really hear the difference across a wide array of headphones.” The plan was to film participants’ reactions to Pono for a promotional video to be featured on the Kickstarter page. Upon arrival, I was greeted by a nice warm living scene complete with The Talking Heads’ Stop Making Sense playing on a flatscreen TV. I was the first to try out the PonoPlayer, handed a pair of large noise canceling over-ear headphones and a yellow triangular prism with a glowing touch screen that read Pono (as seen above). Told to select a song, I chose one of the first tracks on the list: Neil Young’s Heart Of Gold.

THE SOUND: At first, I didn’t notice any real difference. The guitars and light drumming that open Heart Of Gold seemed standard to me. However, when Young’s vocals cut in, that was when my eyes widened. It actually sounded like Neil Young was singing the song into my ear from an inch away, the clarity in his voice unlike anything I’d ever heard before. As a kid who grew up in the digital age, it was almost ominous to me.

I then decided to try out Bob Dylan’s Blowing In The Wind. As soon as the song started, I exclaimed, (extremely loud due to the noise canceling nature of the headphones), “This Dylan song is sick!” The instruments had a much fuller and more prominent sound, and you feel like you’re sitting in a small room watching Bob Dylan or Neil Young sing their classic tunes. Finally, the last song I tried was Metallica’s Enter Sandman, this time using a pair of standard issued Apple headphones. With this one, I was surprised to actually hear more sounds than the version I have on my iPod, which I believe I ripped from YouTube circa 2007. Needless to say, this was probably the most impressive of the three tracks, with the roaring guitars and James Hetfield’s aggressive vocals searing my eardrums.


The only complaint that I, and the others I spoke with, had about PonoPlayer was the shape: a triangle. How is one supposed to put a triangular prism in their pocket without it being 1) uncomfortable and 2) bulging out of a tight pocket? The device we tried out today was just a prototype, leaving many of those who took the trial hoping the developers make the PonoPlayer into a circle… or anything but a triangle.

Is Pono revolutionary? No, not really. Is it worth $399? For most people, that’s probably a negative as well. Portable music tends to be held to a different standard than what comes out of your home stereo. Whether it be a party or, if you’re like me, trying to hold out a conversation with one earbud in, the music is a backdrop that needs to be more convenient than crystal clear. But for those that insist on savoring every nuance of the music on the go, Pono is worth checking out. Just don’t try and multitask. The sound hits you, and can grab your attention like Neil Young sneaking up on you and whispering in your ear.


So it apparently sounds awesome, especially on vocals, but the 2 big negatives as mentioned are of course 1) high price and 2) stupid bulky triangle shape that is not convenient for pockets

I realize they wanted a unique shape/style/design for this thing but they went too far in making it into a "Toblerone bar" shape methinks... should have stuck to traditional iPod shape or even a thick circle design would have been better ( so it fits into pockets better ). Ah well....

This device is not for the "average" mp3 listener, it is meant for audiophiles who are willing to spend the $400 on it, and also match it with audiophile quality headsets/headphones to get the best possible sound from a portable player - and in that area it appears to be unmatched so far... still awaiting the launch of it and more actual in-depth reviews, but the tech specs on paper and the mini-review above does sound very promising!! 8) Don't forget that it is products like this that force manufacturers like Apple to "step up their game" and release a better-sounding iPod in the future, one with higher-quality components at a hopefully reasonable price... Apple ( and other portable music manufacturers ) could make a killing by redesigning their famous iPod to come closer to the sound quality of the Pono player, and mass sales of it would drive the price down eventually over time...win win for everyone then... They could call it the "iPod Audiophile Edition" or "iPod Elite" or something like that and since Apple just bought Beats audio, they could custom design matching Beats headset/headphones tuned for their new player, and people would be lining up around the block for it... high price does not deter Apple fans, that has been proven over and over again, as long as the product works and is stylish...
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Re: PonoMusic by Neil Young

Postby Fuzz » Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:31 am

With this one, I was surprised to actually hear more sounds than the version I have on my iPod, which I believe I ripped from YouTube circa 2007.


And with that statement, his credibility drops to a zero. You mean a properly mastered and compressed track SURPRISINGLY sounds better than an mp3 uploaded to youtube, then downloaded using who knows what, then re compressed and thrown on your iPod? Let me show you my surprised face.

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Re: PonoMusic by Neil Young

Postby Hammer_Time » Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:45 am

:lol:

Well that is very true of course. Still awaiting launch of this player and some "real" indepth reviews on it as mentioned previously... :mrgreen:

Most people cannot distinguish between 16 bit / 44 Khz recordings and 24 bit / 88 Khz ( or higher ) recordings, so this is not meant for the "mainstream" portable market that won't notice a difference. It is aimed at the niche audiophile market where cost is not such a limiting factor - I still have faith in this pono player until the actual reviews prove me wrong...

Marketing fails from the past ( random but you got me thinking about the exaggerations in the marketing of this Pono Player ) :

http://unbounce.com/funny/legendary-marketing-fails/

:lol:
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Re: PonoMusic by Neil Young

Postby Fuzz » Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:14 am

I think they would do well to learn from the past. If they plan on re-inventing the music market, they have another thing coming. Most people use mp3's and DVD's because they are good enough for the right price. Gameboy dominated the portable market with a tiny green screen. Sure, they may hit a bit of a niche market, but its not going to be profitable. I'd be surprised if they ever sell more than 1 million of these and the only people who use their market will be owners. Its an extremely narrow market and I predict death within 3 years of launch.
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