AMD Mantle API to give up to 20% additional gpu performance

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AMD Mantle API to give up to 20% additional gpu performance

Postby Hammer_Time » Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:26 pm

Today's APU13 Conference had some interesting references to AMD's new upcoming Mantle API:

http://techreport.com/news/25651/mantle ... or-support

Mantle to power 15 Frostbite games; DICE calls for multi-vendor support

by Cyril Kowaliski — 7:31 PM on November 13, 2013

Johan Andersson, the man behind DICE's Frostbite game engine, spoke today at the APU13 conference in San Jose. After getting into the nitty-gritty details of AMD's Mantle API (more on that as soon as I wrap my head around it), Andersson shared an update about the upcoming Mantle version of Battlefield 4. He also brought up other Frostbite games that will support the API, and he shared his own wish list for Mantle's future.

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The Mantle version of Battlefield 4 is on track to be released as an update in late December. Andersson said creating a Mantle version of the Frostbite 3 engine took about two months of work. The Mantle release's core renderer is closer to the PlayStation 4 version than to the existing DirectX 11 one, and it includes both CPU and GPU optimizations. Andersson didn't bring up performance estimates, but other developers who discussed Mantle at APU13 did. Jorjen Katsman of Nixxes, the firm porting Thief to the PC, mentioned a reduction in API overhead from 40% with DirectX 11 to around 8% with Mantle. He added that it's "not unrealistic that you'd get 20% additional GPU performance" with Mantle.

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Andersson also revealed another Frostbite 3 game that should have Mantle support "out of the box": Plants vs. Zombies: Garden Warfare. But it's not the only one. A whopping 15 other Frostbite 3-powered games currently in development will support Mantle. Based on the slide above, it looks like the Mirror's Edge prequel and Dragon Age: Inquisition will support Mantle, as will future Mass Effect, and Need For Speed, and Star Wars games. That's in addition to titles from other studios, such as Thief and Star Citizen.

Right now, Mantle only supports GCN-based Radeon GPUs in Windows. Andersson acknowledged that shortcoming, but he was very vocal about his desire for broader support for the API.

For starters, Andersson would like to see Mantle on Linux and OS X. It's "significantly easier" to build an efficient renderer with Mantle than with OpenGL, he explained, and coupling Mantle with Valve's SteamOS in particular would make for a "powerful combination." He also sees potential for Mantle on mobile devices—including those from Google and Apple—on which the API would purportedly allow games to "fully utilize the hardware."

But the "pink elephant in the room," as he called it, is multi-vendor support. Andersson made it clear that, while it only supports GCN-based GPUs right now, Mantle provides enough abstraction to support other hardware—i.e. future AMD GPUs and competing offerings. In fact, Andersson said that most Mantle functionality can work on most modern GPUs out today. I presume he meant Nvidia ones, though Nvidia's name wasn't explicitly mentioned. In any event, he repeated multiple times that he'd like to see Mantle become a cross-vendor API supported on "all modern GPUs."


I've gleaned more details about Mantle, and I'll share those with you guys when I'm not scurrying between keynotes and meeting rooms. The sense I get from the developers AMD invited to APU13, though, is that Mantle yields considerable benefits in terms of development flexibility and performance, and it's worth implementing even in its current, vendor-locked state. Andersson wasn't the only developer to express a desire for multi-vendor support.

There's no telling yet whether Mantle will ever become a cross-vendor, cross-platform standard, or whether the future holds something different, such as a competing Nvidia API or a future version of DirectX with some of the same perks. One thing is clear, though: Mantle looks set to shake up the industry in a very real way.


This is very exciting news in the gaming world actually...

nVidia's proprietary "PhysX" is stagnating ( in my humble opinion ), although they finally allowed it to run on an AMD gpu in the new PS4 and Xbone consoles http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/co ... s4-1136063

I don't think PhysX is all that relevant anymore, AMD's Mantle is the next "big thing" in improving performance significantly in modern games and it is possible that AMD will let them use it on nVidia gpu's ( with licensing fee/royalties paid to Daamit of course ) in the future. :twisted: :D

However, new stories like this make me think that PhysX might still have some place in the future:

http://www.slashgear.com/nvidia-gamewor ... -19302116/

NVIDIA GameWorks gets real: Flame Works, FLEX for PhysX, GI Works for shadows

Chris Burns, Oct 19th 2013

In an effort to expand the understanding the public has of the developer program NVIDIA has in GameWorks, this week they’ve taken the stage with showings of a couple of new (or otherwise newly branded) technologies called FLEX and Flame Works. With FLEX, you’re working with a newly collected set of unified GPU PhysX – bouncing effects, water effects, and cloth. With Flame Works you’re working with volumetric effects like smoke and fire – demonstrated by a friendly dragon in a short demo in tune.

FLEX is a unified simulation system for PhysX – PhysX being the core physics environment for both Unity and Unreal engine and a host of future games, if you did not know. PhysX is used by, as NVIDIA noted this week, over 500 games in the wild today, making the simulation system FLEX significant for the upcoming generation especially.

Explained by NVIDIA’s SVP of Content and Technology Tony Tamasi, FLEX is an environment in which effects are allowed to influence each other. One demonstration shows a set of water balloons falling on top of one another, bouncing away, and ripping – water then spilling out as a result. Another demonstration shows a set of three pieces of cloth suspended invisibly, with water falling from above – only to be held by the cloth in an abundantly realistic manner.

This FLEX system works with a unified solver, shared collision detection, two-way coupling effects, and parallelism from start to finish. Then there’s Flame Works, a system that’s ready to take on volumetric effects with top-tier film quality – here for games.

With Flame Works, developers are invited to work with a multi-grid solver, stochastic shadows as well as scattering, and – again – “film-quality” volumetric effects in smoke and fire. This system in particular has already been being pushed to developers for integration into core gaming engines for the games of our immediate next generation.


NVIDIA also showed off a system called GI Works, revealing here some real-time global illumination action. You’ll find scalable architecture, color bleeding for light and shadow, specular effects, emissive materials, and a fully dynamic environment. This system takes shadows – hard, soft, black, colorful, and everything in-between – to a newly refined universe.

This is all part of GameWorks, the system named as king for NVIDIA’s developer relations efforts throughout the world of gaming. Have a peek at the timeline below for additional moments of GameWorks expression from the past couple of days as well.


hmmmmm
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Re: AMD Mantle API to give up to 20% additional gpu performance

Postby Sauron_Daz » Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:28 am

20%... but that's....GREAT!!
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Re: AMD Mantle API to give up to 20% additional gpu performance

Postby Hammer_Time » Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:32 am

No guarantees of course, but this comes from a game developer ( not AMD marketing spokesperson ) with direct experience with Mantle so far, so I tend to believe it... still want to see actual benchmarks of course, but it does sound quite promising! 8)

In other Daamit news:

http://www.techpowerup.com/194502/amd-a ... emory.html

You know, lots of people said it was a huge mistake years ago when AMD bought up ATi graphics division as they said the company could not "afford the expense" at the time. However, this single act is the only thing that is saving AMD's bacon right now, the graphics division is pretty much the only thing holding the company afloat right now - and of course the fact that AMD jaguar apu ( with AMD gpu embedded ) in the upcoming PS4 and Xbone consoles sure does not hurt the bottom line either. Buying ATi was the smartest decision AMD has ever made ( other than hiring Dirk Meyer whose Alpha EV6 experience helped influence the Hypertransport protocol...which changed the pc world and was a revolution at its time... ) 8) I try not to be biased but I give credit where credit is due...
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Re: AMD Mantle API to give up to 20% additional gpu performance

Postby Sauron_Daz » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:01 am

Yea, AMD is looking to get better and better.
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Re: AMD Mantle API to give up to 20% additional gpu performance

Postby mhudon » Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:29 am

Late December's coming pretty fast. Testing the difference in performance in BF4 will be pretty fun!
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Re: AMD Mantle API to give up to 20% additional gpu performance

Postby Hammer_Time » Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:18 pm

Looking forward to it! I am halfway through BF4's Campaign ( single player ) right now, the graphics are indeed stunning!! Crysis 3 looked amazing too of course, so it is not a "huge" improvement over that game, but BF4 does look damn sweet on Ultra settings at HD res!!

Perhaps with the upcoming Mantle API I can also turn on 8x MSAA and still get decent frame rates! 8) :D
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Re: AMD Mantle API to give up to 20% additional gpu performance

Postby Sauron_Daz » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:10 am

Who knows..
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Re: AMD Mantle API to give up to 20% additional gpu performance

Postby Hammer_Time » Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:24 pm

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Re: AMD Mantle API to give up to 20% additional gpu performance

Postby Sauron_Daz » Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:06 am

Yep..
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Re: AMD Mantle API to give up to 20% additional gpu performance

Postby Kahless » Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:41 pm

Has anything been reported yet on if Nvidia was going to take advantage of Mantle or come up with their own version?
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Re: AMD Mantle API to give up to 20% additional gpu performance

Postby Hammer_Time » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:10 pm

Mebbe, in the future...

From my quoted article above:

But the "pink elephant in the room," as he called it, is multi-vendor support. Andersson made it clear that, while it only supports GCN-based GPUs right now, Mantle provides enough abstraction to support other hardware—i.e. future AMD GPUs and competing offerings. In fact, Andersson said that most Mantle functionality can work on most modern GPUs out today. I presume he meant Nvidia ones, though Nvidia's name wasn't explicitly mentioned. In any event, he repeated multiple times that he'd like to see Mantle become a cross-vendor API supported on "all modern GPUs."

I've gleaned more details about Mantle, and I'll share those with you guys when I'm not scurrying between keynotes and meeting rooms. The sense I get from the developers AMD invited to APU13, though, is that Mantle yields considerable benefits in terms of development flexibility and performance, and it's worth implementing even in its current, vendor-locked state. Andersson wasn't the only developer to express a desire for multi-vendor support.

There's no telling yet whether Mantle will ever become a cross-vendor, cross-platform standard, or whether the future holds something different, such as a competing Nvidia API or a future version of DirectX with some of the same perks. One thing is clear, though: Mantle looks set to shake up the industry in a very real way.


Too early to tell yet, for now it is AMD-only of course... that may change one day , depending on how successful it is, and how many game developers start using it ( so far 15 game developers have games in the works that will use the Mantle API so it is off to a good start already ).

More details here:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/unde ... pi-for-gcn

At the same time, when it comes to writing APIs we also have to briefly mention the fact that unlike the PC world, the use of both high level and low level APIs are a common occurrence in console software. High level APIs are still easier to use, but when you’re working with a fixed platform with a long shelf life, low level APIs not only become practical, they become essential to extracting the maximum performance out of a piece of hardware. As good as a memory manager or a state manager is, if you know your code inside and out then there are numerous shortcuts and optimizations that are opened up by going low level, and these are matters that hardcore console developers will chase in full. So when we talk about AMD writing APIs for the new consoles, we’re really talking about AMD writing two APIs for the new consoles: a high level API, equivalent to the likes of Direct3D and OpenGL, and a low level API suitable for banging on the hardware directly for maximum performance.

This brings us to the crux of the matter: what’s not being said. Simply put, what would happen if you ported both the high level and low level APIs from a console – say the Xbox One – back over to the PC? We already know what that high level API would look like, because it exists today in the form of Direct3D 11.2, an API peppered with new features that coincide with AMD GCN hardware features. But what about a low level API? What would it look like?
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Re: AMD Mantle API to give up to 20% additional gpu performance

Postby Kahless » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:12 pm

Well if it works well and takes off I can't imagine Nvidia not taking advantage of it. It will really suck if they say that it won't work with Kepler cards that you have to go out and buy the upcoming Maxwell to take advantage of it. That would be lame. Isn't it supposed to work with all the radeon 7000 series cards?
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Re: AMD Mantle API to give up to 20% additional gpu performance

Postby Hammer_Time » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:20 pm

Mantle currently works with all "GCN" based AMD cards ( Graphics Core Next ), so that encompassess all the HD 7xxx and higher series of course.

From my quote above, Direct X 11.2 has a number of new features that coincide directly with new Mantle features, so nVidia may simply choose to ignore Mantle altogether and focus on DX 11.2 features ( game developers ignore Mantle and code for DX 11.2 path instead ).

It is still way too early to tell what the future holds here for Mantle...
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Re: AMD Mantle API to give up to 20% additional gpu performance

Postby Kahless » Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:05 pm

Do Kepler cards fully support DX 11.2?
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Re: AMD Mantle API to give up to 20% additional gpu performance

Postby DIREWOLF75 » Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:57 am

Hammer_Time wrote:Mantle currently works with all "GCN" based AMD cards ( Graphics Core Next ), so that encompassess all the HD 7xxx and higher series of course.

From my quote above, Direct X 11.2 has a number of new features that coincide directly with new Mantle features, so nVidia may simply choose to ignore Mantle altogether and focus on DX 11.2 features ( game developers ignore Mantle and code for DX 11.2 path instead ).

It is still way too early to tell what the future holds here for Mantle...


Correction, all cards higher than HD 7730 as below that, they use slightly tweaked older architecture.
Sadly this is also true for the 8xxx series up to the 8490 which is not GCN.
Uncertain about the Rx series.
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Re: AMD Mantle API to give up to 20% additional gpu performance

Postby Hammer_Time » Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:01 am

Kahless wrote:Do Kepler cards fully support DX 11.2?


Edit: All nvidia Kepler cards DO support DX 11.2, but only if you use Windows 8.1 of course , DX 11.2 only available in that Windows version. / end Edit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia_Kepler_Architecture

Microsoft Direct3D Support[edit]
Nvidia Fermi and Kepler GPUs of the GeForce 600 series support the Direct3D 11.0 specification. Nvidia originally stated that the Kepler architecture has full DirectX 11.1 support, which includes the Direct3D 11.1 path.[7] The following " Modern UI " Direct3D 11.1 features, however, are not supported:[8][9]

Target-Independent Rasterization (2D rendering only).
16xMSAA Rasterization (2D rendering only).
Orthogonal Line Rendering Mode.
UAV (Unordered Access View) in non-pixel-shader stages.
According to the definition by Microsoft, Direct3D Feature Level 11_1 must be complete, otherwise the Direct3D 11.1 path can not be executed.[10] The integrated Direct3D features of the Kepler architecture are the same as those of the GeForce 400 series Fermi architecture.[9]


http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=34002149

DirectX 11.2 included in Windows 8.1; AMD and NVIDIA race to support it

New features are being included in the service pack feature upgrade known as Windows 8.1, including a new set of extensions for DirectX. DirectX 11.2 adds some new features, some of which are already supported on newer AMD hardware (see here). NVIDIA's preview driver doesn't detail which cards support which driver model and feature level.

Read the list of extensions at Microsoft. NVIDIA's 700 series is currently launching using the same Kepler architecture designs from the 600 series, which supports DirectX 11.0 in hardware with a few 11.1 extensions supported through software.


AMD have full DirectX 11.1 hardware support in the Graphics Core Next (GCN) architecture based products. With Volcanic Islands expected Q4 2013, up to 6 months ahead of NVIDIA's Maxwell arch, it appears AMD are well ahead in the feature support race and will likely have full DirectX 11.2 hardware before NVIDIA go beyond 11.0.
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http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threa ... -2.186399/

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/20 ... 280a6.aspx


AMD is ahead of nVidia in terms of supporting DX 11.2

All GCN-based AMD cards ( HD 7xxx and higher excepting certain low end models that don't use GCN architecture as Dire has pointed out) will support DX 11.2 ( only available in Windows 8.1 as you know ) with driver update:

http://www.pcper.com/news/Graphics-Card ... iver-Updat

GCN-Based AMD 7000 Series GPUs Will Fully Support DirectX 11.2 After Driver Update
Subject: Graphics Cards | August 26, 2013 - 01:24 AM | Tim Verry
Tagged: amd, Windows 8.1, microsoft, directx 11.2, graphics cards, gaming, GCN

Earlier this month, several websites reported that AMD’s latest Graphics Core Next (GCN) based graphics cards (7000 series and 8000 series OEM lines) would not be compatible with the Windows 8.1-only DirectX 11.2 API. This was inferred from a statement made by AMD engineer Laylah Mah in an interview with c1 Magazin.

Fortunately, the GCN-based cards will fully support DirectX 11.2 once an updated driver has been released. As it turns out, Microsoft’s final DirectX 11.2 specification ended up being slightly different than what AMD expected. As a result, the graphics cards do not currently fully support the API. The issue is not one of hardware, however, and an updated driver can allow the GCN-based 7000 series hardware to fully support the latest DirectX 11.2 API and major new features such as tiled resources.

The updated driver will reportedly be released sometime in October to coincide with Microsoft’s release of Windows 8.1. Specifically, Maximum PC quoted AMD in stating the following:

"The Radeon HD 7000 series hardware architecture is fully DirectX 11.2-capable when used with a driver that enables this feature. AMD is planning to enable DirectX 11.2 with a driver update in the Windows 8.1 launch timeframe in October, when DirectX 11.2 ships. Today, AMD is the only GPU manufacturer to offer fully-compatible DirectX 11.1 support, and the only manufacturer to support Tiled Resources Tier-2 within a shipping product stack.”

So fret not, Radeon 7000-series owners, you will be able to fully utilize DX 11.2 and all its features once games start implementing them, and assuming you upgrade to Windows 8.1.


So unless you run Windows 8.1, DX 11.2 support is a non-issue. Windows 7 users like myself could care less since you can only get DX 11.2 with Windows 8.1! :P
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Re: AMD Mantle API to give up to 20% additional gpu performance

Postby Hammer_Time » Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:02 am

DIREWOLF75 wrote:
Hammer_Time wrote:Mantle currently works with all "GCN" based AMD cards ( Graphics Core Next ), so that encompassess all the HD 7xxx and higher series of course.

From my quote above, Direct X 11.2 has a number of new features that coincide directly with new Mantle features, so nVidia may simply choose to ignore Mantle altogether and focus on DX 11.2 features ( game developers ignore Mantle and code for DX 11.2 path instead ).

It is still way too early to tell what the future holds here for Mantle...


Correction, all cards higher than HD 7730 as below that, they use slightly tweaked older architecture.
Sadly this is also true for the 8xxx series up to the 8490 which is not GCN.
Uncertain about the Rx series.


Yes, that is true, the very low end cards do not support it ( not using the new GCN architecture ), I was speaking in more general terms... you are correct of course.
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Re: AMD Mantle API to give up to 20% additional gpu performance

Postby Kahless » Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:12 am

I'm confused. Some things online say Nvidia Kepler cards support DX 11.2. Only with windows 8.1 of course. The add where I bought my 780 TI on newegg says DirectX 11.2 (feature level 11_0). What does that mean?
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Re: AMD Mantle API to give up to 20% additional gpu performance

Postby Hammer_Time » Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:29 am

Apology, I was looking at an older article, it does appear that DX 11.2 is supported by all nVidia "Kepler" cards.

http://www.geeks3d.com/20130627/directx ... 1-preview/

If you watch the unveiling of directx 11.2 the guy clearly states that it is running on a 770, a card that is already out at market. so it sounds like the main feature of directx 11.2 tiled resources will be backward compatible. Video:http://www.guru3d.com/news_story/directx_11_2_announced.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+guru3d%2Fnews+(Guru3d+Latest+News+%26+Articles)


So your 780 Ti card will support DX 11.2 ( only if you use Windows 8.1 though of course, the only version on Windows that supports DX 11.2 )

Proof:

http://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2013/10/17/windows-8-1-2/

Why Windows 8.1 Delivers

By Brian Burke on October 17, 2013

The free update from Windows 8 to Windows 8.1, just released today by Microsoft, packs a host of enhancements — from better graphics to the addition of Outlook to Windows RT.

The update carries plenty of benefits for GeForce users because it includes the latest version of the Direct3D API, called DirectX 11.2. We were the first GPU manufacturer to release WHQL-certified graphics drivers for Windows 8.1, and we’ve continued our close collaboration with Microsoft to implement new features in DX 11.2, including:

Support for higher resolutions with DPI scaling
HLSL shader linking — Windows apps can now compile shaders offline, and then link them together at runtime to improve performance versus real-time compilation
Tiled resources — Load only the required resources, resulting in very high-resolution imagery with minimal use of GPU memory.
Our GPUs based on Kepler architecture are ready for DX 11.2 and will immediately support these features.


GeForce users also get access to our high-quality drivers, which deliver the best possible gaming experience. This effort requires hundreds of engineer-years and thousands of hours of testing and certification, but it’s essential to ensure optimal performance and stability for the world’s largest gaming platform.

In addition to gaining Outlook 2013 RT, Windows RT 8.1 users will enjoy a variety of new features. Among them are workplace join and third-party mobile device management, tools that will ensure that Windows RT devices fit more easily into enterprise settings.

Our Tegra processors already bring ample power and speed to Windows RT devices. With Windows RT 8.1, the experience only gets better.

You can download Windows 8.1 through the Windows Store now.
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Re: AMD Mantle API to give up to 20% additional gpu performance

Postby Kahless » Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:47 am

DX 11.2 sounds fairly exciting. The Tiled resources almost sounds like a "Mantle" like performance boost? So I guess its a toss up what game companies will go with Mantle or DX 11.2 or both hopefully.

I was figuring by the time a game comes out that uses DX 11.2 most of our graphics cards will be low end and not able to run Crysis 6 past 5 frames per second.
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