Seriously, WTF OEMs!?!?!? and Intel?!

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Seriously, WTF OEMs!?!?!? and Intel?!

Postby Stupify » Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:15 am

I am thinking of configuring a hybrid style laptop but just can't find a decent configuration out there. The OEMs seem to fault two very key components:

1) Screen
- these are either low resolution screen (720p) even on 13" screen or
- very high dpi screen which you will eventually have to down scale to be remotely readable (eg: Samsung's 3200x1800 on 13" which you will down scale to 1600x900) which turns out to be less than 1080p screen. So use more power but have "lower" screen space.
2) RAM
- max 8GB and
- mostly soldered
- costs arm and a leg to go from 4GB to 8GB in many cases

Then there is Intel pulling shit like below:
Mobile CPUs:
1st gen iCore - 8GB max
2nd gen iCore - 16GB max
3rd gen iCore - 32GB max even on many i5
4th gen iCore - 16GB max even on many i7

WTF? i have the 1st gen and I hate the BS of 8GB max but 4 years later and Intel still f**ks around with max ram supported? To make matters worse, all OEMs think soldering on 4GB max or 8GB max is sufficient in this day and age for all. As time progresses more and more memory is needed, not less and less! However, they want to charge an arm, a leg and a kidney but sell a system that is meant to be "disposable" which won't last half as long as many of the older generation. WTF is wrong here?
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Re: Seriously, WTF OEMs!?!?!? and Intel?!

Postby TAViX » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:10 am

That's nothing. Did you know that most of mobile i7 procs are 2 core? :D :D :D
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Re: Seriously, WTF OEMs!?!?!? and Intel?!

Postby Hammer_Time » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:22 am

Does sucketh...

meh...

Here ya go:

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.as ... 6834152416

MSI GE Series GE60 0ND-439CA Intel Core i7 3630QM(2.40GHz) 8GB Memory 750GB HDD 15.6" Notebook Windows 8

$1,149.99


$9.44 Shipping

Brand
MSI
Series
GE Series
Model
GE60 0ND-439CA
Part#
9S7-16GA11-439

General
Color
Black/Red New ID
Operating System
Windows 8
CPU Type
Intel Core i7-3630QM 2.4GHz
Screen
15.6"
Memory Size
8GB DDR3
Hard Disk
750GB
Optical Drive
DVD Super Multi
Graphics Card
NVIDIA Geforce GTX 660M
Video Memory
2GB
Communication
Killer Gaming Network
Dimensions
15.09" x 9.83" x 1.27"-1.46"
Weight
5.28 lbs
Other Features
Bundle: backpack+mouse pad for GMM

CPU
CPU Type
Intel Core i7
CPU Speed
3630QM(2.40GHz)
CPU Support
6MB L3 Cache
Max Turbo Frequency 3.4 GHz

Chipset
Chipset
Intel HM76

Display
Screen Size
15.6"
Wide Screen Support
Yes
Resolution
1920 x 1080
LCD Features
Non Reflection

Operating Systems
Operating System
Windows 8

Graphics
GPU/VPU
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M
Video Memory
Dedicated 2GB
Graphic Type
Dedicated Card

Hard Drive
HDD
750GB
HDD RPM
7200rpm

Memory
Memory
8GB
Memory Speed
DDR3 1600
Memory Spec
4GB x 2

Optical Drive
Optical Drive Type
DVD Super Multi

Communications
LAN
Killer Gaming Network
WLAN
Canyon Peak1x2 (802.11 b/g/n)
Bluetooth
Yes

Ports
USB
2 x USB 3.0
1 x USB 2.0
Video Port
1 x VGA
HDMI
1 x HDMI
Audio Ports
Headset AMP + Gold Flash jacks

Audio
Speaker
Speakers x 4 (2W)

Input Device
Touchpad
Single touch Touchpad
Keyboard
Bilingual 102Keys (Chiclet)

Supplemental Drive
Card Reader
SD/SDHC/SDXC/XD/MSPRO/MS/MMC (support SD 3.0)
Webcam
720P HD Webcam

General
Style
Standard
Type
Gaming & Entertainment
Usage
Consumer

Power
AC Adapter
120-watt AC adapter
Battery
6-cell lithium ion

Physical Specifications
Dimensions
15.09" x 9.83" x 1.27"-1.46"
Weight
5.28 lbs.


More on it here:

http://www.msi.com/product/nb/GE60-0ND.html

CPU 3rd Generation Intel® Core™ i7/i5 Processor
OS Windows 8.1
Chipset Intel® HM76
Memory DDR3 1333/1600MHz, 2 slots, Max. 16GB
LCD Size 15.6" Full HD (1920x1080) LED backlight, Anti-glare 15.6" HD (1366x768) LED backlight
Graphics nVIDIA Geforce GTX660M
Graphics VRAM 2GB GDDR5

HDD (GB) 750GB SATA 7200/5400 rpm
500GB SATA 7200/5400 rpm
Optical Drive Super-Multi / Blu-Ray (option)
Audio Audio Boost, 4(2Wx4)HD Speakers, THX True Studio Pro
Webcam HD Webcam (30fps@720p)
Card Reader SD(XC/HC)/MMC/MS(PRO)/xD
LAN Killer Gaming Networking for priority online gaming
Wireless LAN 802.11 b/g/ n
Bluetooth v4.0
D-Sub (VGA) 1
HDMI 1
USB 2.0 port 2
USB 3.0 port 2
Mic-in/Headphone-out 1 /1
Keyboard Keyboard by SteelSeries 103 keys
AC Adapter 120W
Battery 6 Cells
Dimension 383 x 249.5 x 37.6~32.3mm
Weight (KG) 2.4Kg (w/ Battery)


So, since it only has 2 ram slots, and comes with 2 x 4 GB DDR-3 1600 Mhz, you would have to remove those and sell them yourself, and buy 2 x 8 GB ( 16 GB total ) DDR-3 1600 Mhz so you have 16 GB ( do you really "need" 32 GB , very expensive in laptop memory size!!

Here is the cheapest gaming laptop DDR-3 1600 Mhz 9-9-9-24 1.35 volt 8 GB kit on newegg.ca right now ( the slightly cheaper CAS 11 kits have higher timings so spend the extra few $$ here )

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.as ... 6820211568

ADATA XPG Gaming Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 204-Pin DDR3 SO-DIMM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Laptop Memory Model AXDS1600GC4G9-2

Timing 9-9-9-24
Voltage 1.35V

$74.99


Very good reviews on that memory.

Then of course you will have to yank the HDD and put a fast small SSD in there:

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.as ... 6820211720

ADATA XPG SX910 ASX910S3-128GM-C 2.5" 128GB SATA III MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD)

$124.99

Performance
Max Sequential Read
Up to 550 MB/s
Max Sequential Write
Up to 530 MB/s

4KB Random Read
Up to 50,000 IOPS
4KB Random Write
Up to 85,000 IOPS
MTBF
1,000,000 hours


So, $1150 for the laptop, $75 for the 16 GB kit, $125 for fast 128 GB SSD, comes to $1350 plus tax and shipping.

Don't forget you can probably sell the unused 8 GB ram for around $40 since it is $65 brand new:
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.as ... 6820211756

750 GB 7200rpm 2.5" HDD is worth $100 new: http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.as ... 6822236561 so you should get around at least $70 for it.

So you should get at least $100 ( or slightly more ) for the ram and hdd if you sell it on kijiji or wherever.

That brings the price of the upgraded laptop down to about $1250 plus tax. Mebbe a bit over your budget but you would have a pretty nice gaming laptop with fast 128 GB SSD, 16 GB ram, 15.6" HD 1920x1080 antiglare screen and GTX660M gpu...and a nice audio system, backlit keyboard, and 3630QM cpu that will boost to 3.4 Ghz... not too shabby at all...

Tavix is right, most mobile Core i7 are only dual core...same as Core i5 mobile..the only difference is that the Core i7 has more cache and is usually clocked higher of course.
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Re: Seriously, WTF OEMs!?!?!? and Intel?!

Postby Stupify » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:25 am

O yeah I saw that too.

let me add another awesome decision by Intel - put the fastest GPU only on the fastest CPUs and almost nowhere else. You know that make sense because those who are getting the highend CPU won't instead splurge for a dGPU regardless. Then there is the throttling based on heat leaving any performance/power benefit over previous generation next to nothing, if not worse in many cases.

Haswell on many level seems like a failed CPU specifically due to how Intel has defined each of the SKUs. There should have been two versions of each level of CPUs, one with no iGPU [or a gimped one] and the other with high end iGPU. As it stands almost no CPUs are perfect candidate for most scenarios as either the CPU or the iGPU or the power or a combination isn't right for them.
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Re: Seriously, WTF OEMs!?!?!? and Intel?!

Postby Hammer_Time » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:33 am

Yep, that does sucketh too!! :P
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Re: Seriously, WTF OEMs!?!?!? and Intel?!

Postby Stupify » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:36 am

H_T i believe you have missed one key word in my requirement "hybrid" laptop. hybrid is like a laptop but with detachable keyboard - similar to Microsoft Surface. The "screwed" in base+screen is really hard to use in congested areas like the transit. Why is it so hard to move all the components from the base of the laptop into behind the screen leaving nothing but just the keyboard/mouse on the base? it would actually be even better that way - no more hot keyboard problems either. The "laptop" could and may weigh the same and have the same overall dimensions but is lot more flexible for use on the go. That my friends would be a perfect system for me - a system that has the capacity of a workstation (barring the dGPU), good battery life and is portable for on the go [bus/train] use.

o btw wait till these OEMs also solder on the ssd to "catch up" with the disposable concept the CrApple has been flogging up its iSheeple rear-ends. No more upgradeable parts and the only way to change is to throw away current and buy a new one. Seems like the recent trend with a lot of things in general - take one step forward for one category but few steps backward in the rest of categories, leaving the consumers actually with lesser upgraded feeling system.
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Re: Seriously, WTF OEMs!?!?!? and Intel?!

Postby Sauron_Daz » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:54 am

Stupify wrote:O yeah I saw that too.

let me add another awesome decision by Intel - put the fastest GPU only on the fastest CPUs and almost nowhere else. You know that make sense because those who are getting the highend CPU won't instead splurge for a dGPU regardless. Then there is the throttling based on heat leaving any performance/power benefit over previous generation next to nothing, if not worse in many cases.

Haswell on many level seems like a failed CPU specifically due to how Intel has defined each of the SKUs. There should have been two versions of each level of CPUs, one with no iGPU [or a gimped one] and the other with high end iGPU. As it stands almost no CPUs are perfect candidate for most scenarios as either the CPU or the iGPU or the power or a combination isn't right for them.



Hammer_Time wrote:Yep, that does sucketh too!! :P



Maybe something with an AMD CPU has the configuration you like? I can't say: haven't been looking into this for quite some time now..
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Re: Seriously, WTF OEMs!?!?!? and Intel?!

Postby Stupify » Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:14 pm

i have ruled out AMD option for a long time simply because of their performance and power consumption. they have yet to deliver a product that offers a comparable performance in the same power consumption bracket, specifically 15-25W.
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Re: Seriously, WTF OEMs!?!?!? and Intel?!

Postby Celt » Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:10 pm

Like cars, the word Hybrid means flash marketing but crap performance . . . Ain't any way around that . . . Yet
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Re: Seriously, WTF OEMs!?!?!? and Intel?!

Postby Sauron_Daz » Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:51 pm

TDP.. Intel and AMD use different ways to determine that. But if AMD equipped hardware gives you what you want, with the performance that you need, then: why not have it as an option? I have read a lot of user reviews, conclusion so far is that there is no need to exclude AMD. In fact: many are very favorable towards AMD CPU/APU- based systems. Except those with a budget beyond that what I would call reasonable..(or with a need to brag :wink: )

I do not use a 'hybrid system', just a desktop. And an upgrade that gave me the best performance boost far beyond I could imagine possible was.....the addition of a SanDisk Express cache drive: a 32 GB SSD disk that uses dedicated software to form a kind of cache for apps and startup of my mechanical hard drive. Where I could brew a cup of coffee during startup and have time to spare to log on before, I now don't even have time to heat up the coffee machine. Same goes for programs that are used the most: for example Diablo 3 can be started seconds after booting into Windows, actually playing seconds after that. I am so getting an SSD drive to be my main drive next upgrade.. if I can afford one/to upgrade. Currently I have a Phenom-II dual core @ 3.1 GHz unlocked to a quad core @ 3.6 GHz (temps using a Scythe Mugen-2) never exceeding 50 degrees Celsius with 8 GB of memory. I do know that faster configurations are available, but as far as I am concerned, those are faster on paper only: My ISP recently upgraded my connection from 35 gbps down/3 gbps up to 150 gbps up and down. Do I notice a difference? Sure, but not as big as the numbers say I should.
Same goes for CPU performance. One may say that system X is faster then system Y and he probably would be right. But using either system, would the user notice the difference?

Just don't rule out a manufacturer before having tried it out first hand. Who knows: the experience may surprise you.
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Re: Seriously, WTF OEMs!?!?!? and Intel?!

Postby Stupify » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:53 pm

AMD is out because they don't have a nowhere near comparable performance for me at 15W-25W bracket. And to make matters worse for AMD, most OEMs, if not all, aren't making a respectable hybrid system based on AMD CPU (1080p IPS screen at 13"). So it sucks to rule out AMD but the available options is what is ruling them out.
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Re: Seriously, WTF OEMs!?!?!? and Intel?!

Postby Hammer_Time » Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:42 pm

Sorry Stupe, misunderstood your requirements... hope you can find a decent hybrid soon...
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Re: Seriously, WTF OEMs!?!?!? and Intel?!

Postby DIREWOLF75 » Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:58 pm

Stupify wrote:H_T i believe you have missed one key word in my requirement "hybrid" laptop. hybrid is like a laptop but with detachable keyboard - similar to Microsoft Surface. The "screwed" in base+screen is really hard to use in congested areas like the transit. Why is it so hard to move all the components from the base of the laptop into behind the screen leaving nothing but just the keyboard/mouse on the base? it would actually be even better that way - no more hot keyboard problems either. The "laptop" could and may weigh the same and have the same overall dimensions but is lot more flexible for use on the go. That my friends would be a perfect system for me - a system that has the capacity of a workstation (barring the dGPU), good battery life and is portable for on the go [bus/train] use.


At least one problem that is very obvious is that having most of the weight in the screen means it´s going to tip over very easily. Unless you size up the base plate, which of course makes it needlessly big.


Stupify wrote:o btw wait till these OEMs also solder on the ssd to "catch up" with the disposable concept the CrApple has been flogging up its iSheeple rear-ends. No more upgradeable parts and the only way to change is to throw away current and buy a new one. Seems like the recent trend with a lot of things in general - take one step forward for one category but few steps backward in the rest of categories, leaving the consumers actually with lesser upgraded feeling system.


Yeah it´s sad.
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Re: Seriously, WTF OEMs!?!?!? and Intel?!

Postby Hammer_Time » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:35 pm

What about this? ( not cheap ) :

http://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/laptop ... uo-13.aspx

Display

Sony VAIO Duo 13The 13.3-inch, 1920 x 1080p Triluminos IPS display on the VAIO Duo 13 is one of the sharpest and most colorful we've seen on a hybrid. When we played a 1080p trailer for "The Avengers," colors like the red and blue in Captain America's shield were particularly vibrant and did not fade, even at a full 90 degrees to the left or right. At 311 lux on our light meter, the Duo 13's screen is significantly brighter than the 239-lux category average, the IdeaPad Yoga's 281 lux and the Dell XPS 12's 259 lux.


The touch digitizer was smooth and responsive as we pinched and swiped our way around the operating system.


Battery Life

Sony VAIO Duo 13The Sony VAIO Duo 13 has the longest endurance of any hybrid we've tested and one of the longest runtimes we've seen on any mobile product. The system lasted an epic 13 hours and 16 minutes on the LAPTOP Battery test, which involves continuous Web surfing over Wi-Fi on 40 percent brightness.
This time is more than double the ultraportable laptop category average of 6 hours and 9 minutes and the Lenovo IdeaPad Yoga's 6:18, and it also beat the Dell XPS 12's time of 9:24. Even the Apple MacBook Air 2013's mark of 11 hours and 40 minutes is an hour and a half behind the Duo 13.


Its very sexy, I tried a demo unit at Best Buy, neat how the monitor folds flat right on top of the keyboard to turn it into a "tablet" or you can use the metal hinges to lock it into place as a regular laptop...

It is very light and designed well, the only problem is the price...it costs $1400

http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/son ... fa3e1een02

Sony VAIO DUO 13 13.3" Hybrid Touch Ultrabook - Black (Intel Core i5-4200U / 128GB SSD / 8GB RAM)

Screen Size 13.3 Inches
Native Screen Resolution 1920 x 1080

LED Backlit Display Yes
Touchscreen Display Yes
3D Capable Display No
Processor Type Intel Core i5-4200U
Processor Cores 2
Processor Speed 1.60 GHz
Processor Cache 3 MB
Hard Drive Capacity 128 GB (Solid State)
Hard Drive Speed (Revolutions Per Minute) Not Applicable
RAM Size 8 GB
RAM Type LPDDR3 SDRAM
RAM Speed 1600 MHz

RAM Slots 1 (0 Available)
Optical Drive Not Applicable
Built-in Memory Card Reader Yes
Memory Card Reader - Compatible Memory Type SD
Graphics Chipset Intel HD Graphics 4400
Video Memory Configuration Integrated
Dedicated Video Memory Size Not Applicable
Wireless Display (WiDi) Capable Yes
Speaker Wattage Not Applicable
Integrated Microphone Yes
Microphone Input Yes
Digital Audio Output No
Hardware Volume Control Yes
Webcam Yes
Keyboard Language Bilingual
Numeric Keypad No
Backlit Keyboard Yes
Type of Pointing Device Multi Gesture Touchpad
Number of Touchpad Buttons 1
Type of Modem Not Applicable
USB 2.0 Ports 0
USB 3.0 Ports 2
VGA Output No
HDMI Output Yes
HDCP Compliant Yes
IEEE 1394 Input/Output No
eSATA Port No
ExpressCard/34 Input No
ExpressCard/54 Input No
IR Receiver No
Other Input or Output Ports No
Ethernet Port 10/100/1000
Integrated Wi-Fi 802.11b/g/n
Integrated Bluetooth Yes - 4.0 + HS with NFC
Approximate Battery Life Up To 10 Hours
Battery Type Lithium-Ion
Battery - Number of Cells Not Applicable
Battery - Capacity Not Applicable
Energy Star Qualified Yes
Pre-loaded Operating System Windows 8
Operating System Language Bilingual
Loaded Software Skype; Socialife; ArtRage Studio Pro 3.5; Music by Sony; PlayMemories Home; Album by Sony; ArcSoft Camera for VAIO; Note Anytime for VAIO; CamScanner; VAIO Gesture Control; Adobe Reader; VAIO Care; Intel anti-theft & identity protection technology
Colour Black
Laptop Thickness (closed) 2 cm
Laptop Depth 21 cm
Laptop Width 33 cm
Laptop Thickness (closed) (Inches) 0.8 Inches
Laptop Depth (Inches) 8.3 Inches
Laptop Width (Inches) 13 Inches
Laptop Weight (including battery) 1.33 kg
Warranty Labour 1 Year(s)
Warranty Parts 1 Year(s)

$1,399.99


They use a Samsung brand SSDdrive ( I checked Windows Device Manager on the demo unit, it said "Samsung SSD" , I forget the number string displayed with that... so not sure if an EVO drive, probably it is an 840 drive or 840 Evo, could be a "Pro" but I doubt it...they would put their less expensive SSD in there of course... but even a standard "840" drive is plenty fast...so this is good!

The thing is only 0.8" thick when closed ( in tablet mode ), and it only weighs 1.33 kg!! ( 2.9 pounds ) - including the battery! Featherweight 8)
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Re: Seriously, WTF OEMs!?!?!? and Intel?!

Postby Sauron_Daz » Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:40 pm

Looks nice, but $1400....
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Re: Seriously, WTF OEMs!?!?!? and Intel?!

Postby Stupify » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:41 am

the thing is 8gb max... i am already hitting that easily and so i need the next level up - 16gb or 2 sodimm slots that i can upgrade.
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Re: Seriously, WTF OEMs!?!?!? and Intel?!

Postby Tiggerz » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:50 am

When one says 'configuring hybrid style laptop' and OEM in the same sentence I assume that one is buying a 'white-box' solution and then designing ones own laptop out of it.

If one is doing that then I would suggest that it would be an idea to actually define your audience and usage model before going and selecting hardware. Also compare what other designs are around that have the same usage model.

Also, it is worth while taking the time to understand the available hardware. For example, pixel pitch and screen size affect readability, but resolution is more to do with pen and touch capabilities. Take a look at the different display between an IPad and a Surface Pro 2 as examples.
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Re: Seriously, WTF OEMs!?!?!? and Intel?!

Postby Hammer_Time » Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:09 pm

Stupify wrote:the thing is 8gb max... i am already hitting that easily and so i need the next level up - 16gb or 2 sodimm slots that i can upgrade.


I know, the 8 GB limit is "garbage" these days... should be at least upgradeable to 16 GB ( if not 32 GB ) max... I guess Sony only wants to sell these things to light users... surfers...lol...
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Re: Seriously, WTF OEMs!?!?!? and Intel?!

Postby Sauron_Daz » Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:42 pm

Not garbage.. in most cases sufficient, or even more then that. But there are those with special needs.
Or are those desires.. I do get confused sometimes... :twisted:
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