Clickity-Clickity-Click...

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Clickity-Clickity-Click...

Postby DIREWOLF75 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:54 am

Well, that was funny... When starting up today, my second HDD sat there and clicked for a while, after a couple of reboots, it runs again but have jumped from zero to 665 reallocated sectors in one go and HDsentinel estimates fitness to 15% and remaining lifetime to 21 days.
I now have it disconnected for the time being.
Interestingly, it´s my 7200.12 drive that is going bad, the 7200.11 one which was part of the "bad firmware"/"bricked drives" batch seems to do just fine, despite being almost 2 years older, HDS estimates its remaining lifetime as higher than what the .12 has in total.

So, the question, i´ll probably get a new drive tomorrow or so, first of all to do a complete backup of the probably failing drive, and here i already needed an extra drive damnit...
Main contenders for new 2TB HDD is a WD Red and a Seagate ( 7200.14 ? )...
Yes i know its one 7200 and one 5400 rpm drive, but the pricetag is roughly the same, and a WD Black 2TB costs about 50% more, and most importantly, i want reliability FIRST.
I read quite a few odd stuff about that Seagate drive while the Red series is supposed to be specifically about being reliable...

So, in short, anyone have any knowledge or experience with either drive?

And secondly, anyone remember what the warranty time was from Seagate 2.5 years ago?
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Re: Clickity-Clickity-Click...

Postby Fuzz » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:18 am

I've got about 7 of those 7200.11 drives still running in servers. Only had one fail out of the original 12.
Make sure you don't use windows file copy on that failing drive to backup, or if it hits a bad spot you will probably end up with an unresponsive OS.

In my experience in the past decade, reliability is more based on a drive model than a manufacturer. Either company can make a turkey. I'd do some searches online for reliability and see what comes up. The red drive will do 7200rpm if needed, so I don't think the performance difference is an issue, though I haven't looked at benchmarks.

Oh, and for warranty, check here:
http://support.seagate.com/customer/en- ... dation.jsp
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Re: Clickity-Clickity-Click...

Postby DIREWOLF75 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:45 pm

Make sure you don't use windows file copy on that failing drive to backup, or if it hits a bad spot you will probably end up with an unresponsive OS.

Have a suggestion for a replacement? It´s years since i did something like this last and i think i got away clean with windows copying it that time.

I've got about 7 of those 7200.11 drives still running in servers. Only had one fail out of the original 12.

Yeah that one still runs fine, even if i never liked how much odd noises it makes.
Checking however seems to show more issues with the 7200.12s.

In my experience in the past decade, reliability is more based on a drive model than a manufacturer.

To some degree oh certainly yes. However, if you bought a Maxtor in the year before Seagate absorbed them, you´re almost guaranteed to have gotten a drive that failed within 2-3 years.
And average Seagate quality suffered very noticeably from that purchase as well.

I´m just bloody annoyed that i can no longer buy Samsung or Hitachi, of all the drives i´ve had(or been involved in buying for others) over the last almost 2 and a half decades, those are the only ones that never failed(IBM got off that list due to my friend buying a couple of GXP 60 which he then promptly mounted in a chassi with zero air movement around the HDDs and lousy ventilation overall, running heat sensitive HDDs at 40+C... despite me expressly and very verbosely saying that he was going to kill them like that... yeah they didn´t last 2 years even, barely over 1 year for one IIRC).

First drive that failed for me, it was a 20MB Seagate, later repaired by a friend of my brother who soldered on a replacement for the component that had burned up(literally).

Simple fact, out of all the WD drives i´ve seen, none remained fully working until the system it was in was retired. And the only Seagate that have lasted for me, is my current boot drive in this system, and it´s just barely 4 years by now, no age at all compared to my ~15 year old Samsung for example.


The red drive will do 7200rpm if needed, so I don't think the performance difference is an issue, though I haven't looked at benchmarks.

Really... Huh, i´ve missed that i guess. From everything i´ve seen, they run at "around 5400". And performance is a bit higher than current 5400 rpm drives and partially equal to 7200rpm drives from several years back.
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Re: Clickity-Clickity-Click...

Postby Hammer_Time » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:05 pm

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6157/west ... -premium/2

Final Words

With the WD Red lineup, Western Digital continues its successful branding initiative. The three disks that we have had in-house over the last month have performed and held up quite well under stress. The disks have the optimal balance of firmware features necessary for usage in NAS systems. The icing on the cake is the fact that all of these features are configurable, if the end user so desires. The power consumption profile is also very attractive, and the reduced IntelliPower rotational speed doesn't seem to affect the performance much (at least in the SMB / SOHO 2 - 5 bay NAS systems that these drives are meant for).

Are these features worth the extra premium? We have no doubts about that, as the extended warranty period (3 years vs. 2 for the Green drives) and 24x7 support, as well as the lower power consumption should pay for itself over the course of the lifetime of the drive. Irrespective of the warranty / RMA possibility, consumers would do well to keep data on any hard drive (including the WD Reds) backed up (if possible, in a different location).

On the basis of our evaluation, we have no reservations in recommending the WD Red lineup as the drives of choice for a NAS system. As usual, it is extended usage and consumer reports a few months down the line which will tell the true story. At the moment, however, WD does have a winner in the NAS market segment with the WD Red hard drives.


Nice drive for storage...good balance of performance with low power consumption...
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Re: Clickity-Clickity-Click...

Postby DIREWOLF75 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:47 pm

Nice drive for storage...good balance of performance with low power consumption...

Yeah, just slightly higher price than the 7200.14 and i´m sort of getting tired and annoyed with Seagate(all those tiny little noises, *sigh* ) and it´s years since i bought a WD last(OTOH, i didn´t like THAT one either, but at least it was consistent in its noisiness) and the Red series does seem like it could be a good idea, focusing on 24/7 reliability and "good enough" performance overall.
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Re: Clickity-Clickity-Click...

Postby Fuzz » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:18 pm

For RPM, I had red one that says they can run up to 7200, but after further reading, it is all kind of cryptic, with a more common guess being in the 5000-5400 rpm range. In the end, its performance that matters more than numbers. I'd hunt down some benchmarks.

For copying, I use fastcopy. Its got a fairly simple interface, but the benefit is that it bypasses windows copy commands, and works faster.
I actually use it for backups nightly on 3 servers because it can scan for and only copy changed files. It'll scan through 2TB in about 10 minutes. It also has a log, and say your backup tanks halfway through, if you can get the drive back up, you can just run it in "dif" mode and it will only copy the files it missed. It will also keep on going if it hits some bad ones, and write it to the log.
http://ipmsg.org/tools/fastcopy.html.en

I know there are others like this, like terracopy which i haven't tried. Good tools for damaged drives as any time windows craps out on a copy, you are left scratching your head trying to figure out where it crapped out. If a drive goes tits up, it can also just lock up windows. And that sucks. Especially when it is a server. :)
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Re: Clickity-Clickity-Click...

Postby Hammer_Time » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:10 pm

Yep, I have used Fastcopy in the past and also like it a lot... good tool for sure. :D

I was going to recommend you go with the Seagate Barracuda 2.0 TB drive since it is fast and a bit cheaper than the WD Red series till I read this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6822148834

Seagate Barracuda ST2000DM001 2TB 7200 RPM 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive
$109.99


Warranty

Limited Warranty period (parts): 2 years
Limited Warranty period (labor): 2 years



Pros: got it for an excellent price.
price-to-performance ratio is very reasonable, performs just below the 2TB Western Digital Black at nearly half the price.
purchased 2 units, both are functional.
So far, no problems.

Cons: every so often, the hard drive will make a high-pitched whine and clicking sound. It sounds sharp and fast. I know this is too fast to be caused by the platters spinning up. I am using one of these drives in conjunction with a 64GB SSD and Intel Rapid Storage Technology, so the drive doesn't always receive reads/writes immediately while working with larger files. I've checked the S.M.A.R.T. status of the drive as well as the sectors and it's completely healthy. my experience has always been hard drives + nasty sounds = failure. Again, I've yet to have problems but I find the sound to be quite unnerving.


Can't Always Get What You Want

Pros: It is difficult to find many pros for Hard Drives produced virtually anywhere these days. The technology is very mature, but with all of the stiff competition over the past few years it has resulted in so many corners being cut that sadly the "square is now round".

What we should be seeing is hard drives that will run forever and we're replacing them with SSD's because they're faster and have no moving parts.

Cons: I just wanted to add to the "reliability factor" of internal hard drives these days. It is true that Seagates made in China are of the lowest quality, and ditto for Hitachi "Deathstars" as they were bought out by Seagate and also come from China and lack quality. Toshiba markets their HDD's from Hitachi Global, a.k.a., Storage Products(Shenzhen) Co Ltd which of course is in China. WD has plants in Thailand and Malaysia and that is where the majority of their (black, green, red) drives come from. Not sure is they're getting the blue line out of China now. They're not making drives like they used to a few years ago.

Manufacturers used to tout MTBF's of a million hours, but now you often don't even see them list it. They've shortened warranties and seem to be fine with DOA rates as high as 10 - 20%.

Most reviews are written within 1 - 4 weeks of purchase so it is even more telling that so many folks have tales of woe for their brand new drives, and it leaves one wondering that those positive reviews and warm feelings may be short lived.

Other Thoughts: I have several older Western Digital and Samsung (pre-selloff to Seagate) drives that are 3 - 5 years old with no bad sectors or strange sounds coming from them. These were produced to higher standards than comparable drives made today.

Prices are coming down on SSD's, but there still is a read/write operations ceiling where the current memory technology can only cycle so many times before it begins to degrade.

Perhaps this limitation will be overcome in the future, but for now you will be paying a premium for a SSD drive which will begin to degrade over time with use.


Pros: Good Price

Cons: Appears to have a really high failure rate, based on my own experience and the others I see here.


Pros: Reliable and fast. I store music/pictures/movies on a pair of these setup in RAID. So far so good.

Cons: The spin up/down is a little bit noisier than some other seagates that I have used in the past. Not really a big deal though.


Pros: I bought the drive on sale during Black Friday, so for the capacity/price, it was a great deal. I've had it running for about a month now without any issues, other than the noise it will make every now and again that others have reported.

Cons: The noise is apparently a power saving feature, but it makes me cringe every time I hear it. I've never owned any other HDD that made noise like that, unless it was about to die. I was worried at first, but after running lots of DFTs and reading other's comments/Seagate forums, I'm not very concerned about it anymore. I do run a nightly backup of my important files though, just incase (probably a good idea regardless).


Pros: Decent speeds.
Cheaper than many other drives of this capacity.

Cons: The first drive that I got makes a short, high-pitched, scraping sound from time to time although I'm not convinced it has any negative impact on performance as I tested it with HD Tune Pro after a month of chirping and the drive health does not appear to suffer from it. The sound just gets on your nerves and makes you paranoid about drive failure.


Pros: * Size
* Price

Cons: Ordered 4 at the same time. Of those, so far:

* 2 were DOA.
* 1 died after 3 weeks of use.


Other Thoughts: With 2 DOA drives, I performed 4 complete write/read tests (Linux command: badblocks -w) on the other 2 to ensure that they were good. They appeared to be and I attempted to install them in a RAID array. They were too large for the target system to handle -- my fault. They sat on a shelf for 6 months before I needed 1 for a new system.

That drive lasted 3 weeks before developing unrecoverable bad sectors in two separate areas of the drive. I mirrored it to the fourth drive and am RMAing it. We'll see how long it lasts...


and so on...

The conclusion is that these Seagate Barracudas are fast and cheap, but they are NOISY as hell by design ( which I know you cannot tolerate from your posts about this topic ) and they seem to have an abnormally high failure rate based on browsing 34 pages of customer feedback on that newegg page for the drive...scary actually....

Do yourself a favour and invest a bit more money and get a WD Red , good compromise between price and capacity and performance, and I bet the Reds are a lot more reliable too... the WD Red 2.0 TB costs $20 more than the Seagate Barracuda 2.0 TB drive over here on newegg.com, but you will probably pay more for it over there, it will be worth the extra money over the lifetime of the drive for you however, reliability and noise-wise...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6822236343

Western Digital Red WD20EFRX 2TB IntelliPower 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive

$129.99

Warranty

Limited Warranty period (parts): 3 years
Limited Warranty period (labor): 3 years



Great for the purpose

Pros: These drives are nice, I purchased 3 of them and set it up with a hardware RAID-5 for 3.6-ish TB of usable space to use as primary storage on a budget ESXi5.1 Server to host VMs. I have a NAS4Free VM that holds all of my media. Also I have a Windows Server 2012 VM as my home domain controller, DNS, etc... On top of that I have a few client VMs (Win7, Vista, XP, Linux, etc..) to test with. I can have them all load at once and still have a surprisingly fast load time.

I have been running it for a few months now with no issues (also no DOAs either) , they all run quiet, cool and fast for not being an SSD or a 7200 RPM drive. I recommend these to anyone who has a NAS or wants cheap, reliable secondary storage or something like that. I will buy another today actually to increase the size because Newegg has a sale today for a 2 TB Red Drive for 110 bucks.


Cons: The only Con would be that the price of the 3 TB model is SO much more than the 2 TB one. Normal Price the 2 TB = $130 VS the 3 TB = 170

Other Thoughts: These are hooked to a LSI MegaRAID SATA/SAS 9240-8i RAID card using a forward breakout cable (SAS --> SATA) and are in a RAID-5 configuration. Perfect stability, no issues.


First Hard Drive review

Pros: I've owned many hard drives over the years, and after a recent detrimental experience with another online supplier, and a set of 4x Seagate Barracuda 2TB single platter 7200rpm drives, I am very happy to write a review of these WD Red drives.

The 4 Seagate drives I received from another supplier were all dead on arrival with terrible clicking noises in each, and many I/O errors. I was very worried and spent nearly 3 months to get the drives RMA'd, and even more time to try and get all of my money back (they said they couldn't re-produce the clicking sounds and were trying to charge me restocking fees).

I finally got all of the returns processed from the other company and ordered 4 of these 2TB Western Digital Red drives from Newegg. The drives are running in RAID 0 giving me a total of 8TB of storage for my video editing suite. The drives are online 24/7 and have no clicking sounds or smart errors thus far. I've had them running for a total of almost 2 months spinning without any rest and haven't had any hiccups. If you're looking to run some drives in RAID0 for media storage / scratch disks, these are the drives for you.


and so on... most customer feedback on the REDS is quite positive for the most part...very low failure rate ( so far, new series of drive takes years to establish a real reputation of course ) and most importantly they are QUIET!! Yes there are reports of a few lemons with the REDS, but far less complaints about DOA or failed drives than the Seagate Barracuda drives lately!! Add to this the fact that the Seagate Barracuda only has a 2 year warranty, while the WD Red's have a 3 year warranty, and your decision should now be made...spend the extra on the RED...

Strongly recommend you go for the RED drive here over the Seagate...

Review of the WD Red 3.0 TB drive ( should be similar to 2.0 TB drive ) :

http://www.storagereview.com/western_di ... w_wd30efrx

Conclusion

Western Digital had a simple goal in mind when launching the WD Red; they wanted the drives to be synonymous with SOHO NAS use, developing into the defacto standard for small NAS use. Their custom firmware dubbed NASware and related technologies get the WD Red ready for this specialized 24/7 operational task. The Red has all the features needed like no unnecessary head parking, drive tolerances that support RAID environments and 3D Active Balance technology which reduces vibrational wear on the drives. WD has also pre-qualified the Red with leading NAS vendors and the host controllers found in most NAS systems. On the support side the drives come with a three year warranty and a dedicated support line just for WD Red owners


Doesn't get much better than that for a desktop class hdd...
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Re: Clickity-Clickity-Click...

Postby Hammer_Time » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:32 pm

DIREWOLF75 wrote:And secondly, anyone remember what the warranty time was from Seagate 2.5 years ago?


Seagate recently chopped warranty down to a measly 1 year warranty for their cheapo Green drives, and cut down the Barracuda warranty from 3 years down to 2 years: ( for desktop class drives )

http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2011/1 ... arranties/

If you want to know if your 2.5 year old drive is still under warranty you can check it here:

http://www.seagate.com/support/warranty ... s/rma-faq/

http://support.seagate.com/customer/en- ... dation.jsp

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Re: Clickity-Clickity-Click...

Postby STBTechAL655 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:53 pm

My advice, go for the Constellation line from Seagate, enterprise class HDDs, I've searched a lot for dependable hard-drives, but it seems nowadays the output of crap is insane, so I had to go enterprise...

They are somewhat expensive, but they have 5 years warranty standard, and are faster overall than the usual 7200 RPM from Seagate or WD. The mechanical parts on them are the same as the one on the SAS variants. Only downside is that they are a bit more noisy, but not too much.

Search some data on them on the net.
01010000 01001111 01010000 01000101 01010011 01000011 01010101 00100000 01000001 01001100 01000101 01011000 01000001 01001110 01000100 01010010 01010101 00100000 01001110 01001001 01000011 01001111 01001100 01000001 01000101
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Re: Clickity-Clickity-Click...

Postby DIREWOLF75 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:45 am

Do yourself a favour and invest a bit more money and get a WD Red , good compromise between price and capacity and performance, and I bet the Reds are a lot more reliable too... the WD Red 2.0 TB costs $20 more than the Seagate Barracuda 2.0 TB drive over here on newegg.com, but you will probably pay more for it over there, it will be worth the extra money over the lifetime of the drive for you however, reliability and noise-wise...


The difference between the two is actually more like just 7-9$. 949 vs 1011 SEK. While the WD Black runs in at 1490.

The conclusion is that these Seagate Barracudas are fast and cheap, but they are NOISY as hell by design

Most of all, it´s not that they´re making LOUD noises, it´s that they´re making noises that sounds like something i do NOT want to hear from a HDD, and a lot of SMALL noises frequently.




My advice, go for the Constellation line from Seagate, enterprise class HDDs, I've searched a lot for dependable hard-drives, but it seems nowadays the output of crap is insane, so I had to go enterprise...

Mmm, only problem is that the 2TB Constellation has a pricetag of 2290 SEK. Enough for TWO WD Reds.

And yeah, it seems quality may actually be going down. :(



Leaning quite strongly towards the Red, but it will also depend on what the store has available right now.
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Re: Clickity-Clickity-Click...

Postby Hammer_Time » Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:27 pm

I too think the WD Red is the best choice for you ( Seagate Constellation are awesome as well, but as you say, very expensive in your area... ) all factors considered. Happy Shopping!
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Re: Clickity-Clickity-Click...

Postby DIREWOLF75 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:20 pm

Hammer_Time wrote:I too think the WD Red is the best choice for you ( Seagate Constellation are awesome as well, but as you say, very expensive in your area... ) all factors considered. Happy Shopping!


They were almost sold out on 2TB drives(had just a single WD Green and one 7200.14 left onsite) but i should have it by Wednesday.

I now also have a slight suspicion on what may have caused the drive to fail... When i have it running again with the new drive, i will have to see if it deteriorates further and dies or simply remains as it is now and keeps running ok... If the latter, my suspicion was likely correct.

Also, checking around with warranties, well the store has a 2y warranty for all drives they sell, so that wont work, and HDsentinel specifically stated that the issue was not serious enough to generate a warranty-ticket from Seagate... That looked rather funny in a dark humor kind of way when it displayed estimated time of life remaining as 21 days right underneath that message... :lol:
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Re: Clickity-Clickity-Click...

Postby Hammer_Time » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:11 pm

:lol: that is kinda disturbing indeed! :incoming: :lol: good luck with the old drive... :scout:

Glad to hear you ordered the WD Red, hope you get it on Wed... cheers!
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Re: Clickity-Clickity-Click...

Postby Sauron_Daz » Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:23 am

DIREWOLF75 wrote:Also, checking around with warranties, well the store has a 2y warranty for all drives they sell, so that wont work, and HDsentinel specifically stated that the issue was not serious enough to generate a warranty-ticket from Seagate... That looked rather funny in a dark humor kind of way when it displayed estimated time of life remaining as 21 days right underneath that message... :lol:


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Re: Clickity-Clickity-Click...

Postby Sauron_Daz » Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:24 am

DIREWOLF75 wrote:Mmm, only problem is that the 2TB Constellation has a pricetag of 2290 SEK. Enough for TWO WD Reds.


Then WD Red it must be!
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Re: Clickity-Clickity-Click...

Postby Hammer_Time » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:41 am

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Re: Clickity-Clickity-Click...

Postby Sauron_Daz » Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:12 pm

One more plus to red:

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Re: Clickity-Clickity-Click...

Postby DIREWOLF75 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:29 pm

Everything backed up on the new drive, zero data loss and the old drive now seems to run ok again.

And the new drive, no noise, 70-120MB/s during backup copying, not bad, even if you do notice that the seektime is a bit longer, the difference is not enough to be a bother... Looks like a winner.
Unusually, i get a positive surprise, WD actually makes a HDD that doesn´t sound like a steel mill on LSD! :mrgreen:

Will be real interesting now to see if the old drive keeps running without any more sectors failing. If it does, i know my guess about the cause is likely correct.
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Re: Clickity-Clickity-Click...

Postby Hammer_Time » Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:02 pm

Glad to hear you got your new WD Red drive and is very "quiet" as expected! 8)

Hope your old drive keeps chugging along there...cheers!
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Re: Clickity-Clickity-Click...

Postby Sauron_Daz » Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:54 am

DIREWOLF75 wrote:Everything backed up on the new drive, zero data loss and the old drive now seems to run ok again.

And the new drive, no noise, 70-120MB/s during backup copying, not bad, even if you do notice that the seektime is a bit longer, the difference is not enough to be a bother... Looks like a winner.
Unusually, i get a positive surprise, WD actually makes a HDD that doesn´t sound like a steel mill on LSD! :mrgreen:

Will be real interesting now to see if the old drive keeps running without any more sectors failing. If it does, i know my guess about the cause is likely correct.


So what do you think is the cause?
We never think of us as being one of Them. We are always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
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