Bin Laden Dead

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Bin Laden Dead

Postby Fuzz » Sun May 01, 2011 7:35 pm

Can we leave Afghanistan yet? Please?

I don't understand all the partying going on. Hundreds of thousands dead in 2 wars, plus the terrorist attacks, and 1 guy gets killed, who hasn't had a hand in anything for years, and its party time?
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Re: Bin Laden Dead

Postby Akram » Sun May 01, 2011 10:01 pm

The problem is that I was surprised that many considers him a hero or a good guy at least.....oh bugger we are having a hard time with fundamentalists and this is the last thing we need.
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Re: Bin Laden Dead

Postby Hammer_Time » Mon May 02, 2011 12:56 am

I read Tavix's post about this before I noticed you created a new thread about it here.

My reply is here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=15269&start=600

This won't change anything of course. I am glad they got him, but it will change nothing.
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Re: Bin Laden Dead

Postby Fuzz » Mon May 02, 2011 4:39 am

Lulz
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Re: Bin Laden Dead

Postby <R.t..>^>Fusionc » Mon May 02, 2011 6:52 am

I posted up a comment on a video mentioning that people who are cheering for the death of one man are idiots.

What I said was that it was uncanny that they were cheering for the death of a person with flags waving, chanting "USA, USA!", singing the "Star Spangled Stripes", "God Bless America", and that "Nah, nah, nah goodbye whatever" song. To me, that didn't sit well. My first reaction to Osama's death wasn't joy, or anger, but just shock and surprise. The thing that was uncanny about them cheering was that, at first glance, its almost no different than the people who cheered for the fall of the towers on 9/11 on the other side of the world.

Was the death now justified? Tell that to the innocent Afghan an Iraqi citizens that; who lost their families under fire, tell that to the families who lost loved one in the war, tell that to the political leader who spent trillions in this "war against terror" over the past freaking decade.

Would these same people be cheering still if those loyal to Osama Bin Laden attacked within 7 days from now? Terrorists are like weeds, no matter how hard, how fast you try to pull them out, they'll come back. Sometime they'll come back faster and stronger. Now that he is now seen a some martyr, I just think it will embolden and inspire other terrorist organizations to strike faster and harder against the US and its allies.

And was this really all done for justice? I don't think its justice anymore when you cheer for a mans death; probably just for the feel of revenge that these people wanted. Why do I get the feeling that the deaths of those at 9/11 are "immoral" and that the deaths over in Afghanistan and Iraq are somehow "casualties" or whatever kind of sprinkles you fancy from all the news that I have been bombarded with in the last 10 years?

Had his accomplished anything? Our economy is still in a sh1t hole, fossil fuel prices are surging, trillions of dollars are still being spent abroad, political deadlocks ensue, wars are still going on, and terrorists are still working in their latest and greatest plans.

And yet, it astounds me that many Americans, Fox News, are all like "AMERICA, F*CK YEAH!", "WE WON!!!!", climbing trees, grasping each other's hands, high-fiving, and yet it doesn't appear that they are aware of what is still going around the freaking world and to their own country.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a terrorist supporter but its just that reaction is just strange for something like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9F4-lCe0sI Osama Bin Laden Dead; Americans Still Stupid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH8Y0IsgwuQ So... Was it worth it?

Cheering:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5XVAugy_3I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QeqPYtE ... ture=feedu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHpwNbqK ... ture=feedu



I just wanted to add, a venomous snake is still dangerous even after you behead it.
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Re: Bin Laden Dead

Postby Hammer_Time » Mon May 02, 2011 7:44 am

All true - but the Americans need to pat themselves on their backs every once in a while. Obama needed this as he was really starting to sag in the polls over Libya and other problems USA faces right now. I think they knew where Osama was all along, and were waiting for the "right time" to go in and finally kill him, thus boosting morale across the US which badly needs it right now... USA! USA! USA! USA! ( morons - totally agreed with you! ). :roll: They are just as happy as the day OJ Simpson walked free from his trial after murdering his ex-wife Nicole Simpson and her lover with a knife... :roll:

Is there any coincidence to the fact this happened on our election day here in Canada, where Harper is strongly aligned with Obama and the ongoing war in Afghanistan? If Harper goes it is very likely we will pull out of Afghanistan completely, or severely reduce the number of troops and support there. This news might be considered by some Conservatives here as a sign that USA/Canada is "winning" in Afghanistan and thus garner more votes for Harper's conservatives today...

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadi ... Id=6730242

Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan happy but cautious at bin Laden's death
By Colin Perkel, The Canadian Press – 22 minutes ago

SALAVAT, Afghanistan — Word that U.S. forces had killed terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden swept through a small Canadian patrol base in southern Afghanistan on Monday like a brush fire.

Initial disbelief gave way to cautious optimism and outright jubilation as soldiers passing each other asked: "Have you heard?"

"I just found (out) a few moments ago. Good news, another indication that we're winning the war," said a beaming Warrant Officer Gabriel Bernard as he gave a double thumb's up.

"Hopefully, it's a step forward toward world peace and a resolution for the conflict here in Afghanistan."

Some wondered what the reaction might now be from both al-Qaida and the insurgents in Afghanistan. "Many consider him a saint," said one man on the base, who preferred not to be identified.

Others _ whose first question in the news-deprived environment of the base near Salavat in Panjwaii district was "Are you kidding?" _ said they did not think they would see the day.

"I did not expect it to happen on my tour," said Sgt. Michel Pelletier.

"I guess it's a step forward because they've been trying for so long to get him."

Pelletier said bin Laden's death in neighbouring Pakistan might put a dent in the insurgents' morale, temporarily.

However, he expressed skepticism that it would change anything in Afghanistan, where Canadians along with their NATO allies have spent almost a decade fighting a stubborn insurgency following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

"I'm sure they have other leaders who probably are going to step up," Pelletier said of al-Qaida.

"I don't see this war changing that fast."


At Canadian headquarters at Kandahar Airfield, military officials called bin Laden's death "significant."

At the same time, Capt. Annie Djiotsa, task force spokeswoman, said the killing would have no impact on Canada's combat mission as it winds down ahead of the July withdrawal.

"The threat remains and we are focused on the job at hand that the Canadian, Afghan and our international partners expect us to complete," Djiotsa said.

"We shall continue to apply the same commitment to the mission as we have been doing every day in the districts of Dand and Panjwaii."

On the base near Salavat, one soldier went from tent to tent to announce the news he had just learned via the Internet.

The death quickly became a topic of conversation, with phrases like "That's great" and "Good news" tossed out frequently.

They wanted to know where and how the operation was carried out.

One American soldier said he wondered if U.S. President Barack Obama would try to take credit for bin Laden's killing.

"The military did all the work," he said to a buddy, to strenuous agreement


We are scheduled to pull out of Afghanistan this July, but like Obama, I bet this will get delayed indefinitely... :roll:

Here we go:

Eleven People Killed As Taliban Announces Spring Offensive In Afghanistan

The killing of Osama Bin Laden comes as Taliban-led militants announced a springtime offensive in Afghanistan, killing at least 11 people on Sunday. In one attack, a suicide bomber said to be 12 years old killed four people.The Taliban has warned civilians to stay away from public gatherings, military bases and convoys, as well as government offices
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Re: Bin Laden Dead

Postby Akram » Mon May 02, 2011 9:53 am

Holy shit!! They threw the body in the sea!! What were they thinking!!??
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Re: Bin Laden Dead

Postby Fuzz » Mon May 02, 2011 10:19 am

Probably didn't want any chance of the body becoming a place for people to worship. Plus he was kind of a dick, and I imagine the helicopter was getting stunk up with his rotting corpse, so they probably just dumped it as soon as they could!
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Re: Bin Laden Dead

Postby Hammer_Time » Mon May 02, 2011 10:31 am

Its muslim tradition to bury the body within 1 day of death:

Bin Laden's body was later buried at sea, an official said. Many Muslims adhere to the belief that bodies should be buried within one day.

The official did not release additional details about the burial, but said it was handled in keeping with Muslim customs
.


Its also very convenient if you buried a dead dude with similar appearance to Bin Laden at sea, cuz now there is no way to verify his identity , he will decompose very rapidly at sea.

This all smells very "fishy" to me. It is possible they finally got him, but its also equally possible this is another conspiracy at work.
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Re: Bin Laden Dead

Postby DIREWOLF75 » Mon May 02, 2011 5:19 pm

Fuzz wrote:Can we leave Afghanistan yet? Please?

I don't understand all the partying going on. Hundreds of thousands dead in 2 wars, plus the terrorist attacks, and 1 guy gets killed, who hasn't had a hand in anything for years, and its party time?


Well, with this bastard dead, at least packing up and leaving Afghanistan isnt quite as big of an Automatic Epic Fail as it was so...

Lulz

:lol:
Its really damned funny, that the exact people doing the worst smear campaigns are the ones most let down by GWBs failed promise to kill the man. Will we hear any selfrecrimination or "soulsearching" from them? Lol, hell NO!


What I said was that it was uncanny that they were cheering for the death of a person with flags waving, chanting "USA, USA!", singing the "Star Spangled Stripes", "God Bless America", and that "Nah, nah, nah goodbye whatever" song. To me, that didn't sit well. My first reaction to Osama's death wasn't joy, or anger, but just shock and surprise. The thing that was uncanny about them cheering was that, at first glance, its almost no different than the people who cheered for the fall of the towers on 9/11 on the other side of the world.

Except that most of the people "cheering 9/11" wasnt actually doing that.
But indeed yes, it is "funny" how something is just fine and dandy if the "right side" is doing it and disgusting if someone else does it.

And was this really all done for justice?

Hah! Hardly. Revenge and setting an example.

Had his accomplished anything?

Probably, almost certainly something yes but its almost impossible to say how much.
His death might at best actually make quite a big positive difference and at worst will only make a small, but still probably positive, difference.

And yet, it astounds me that many Americans, Fox News, are all like "AMERICA, F*CK YEAH!", "WE WON!!!!"

Ah yes, insular and ignorant USA at its best...


I think they knew where Osama was all along, and were waiting for the "right time" to go in and finally kill him

Polling bad NOW doesnt matter much, if they DID know then this would have happened much closer to the next presidential election.
Why should any politican care about popularity between elections?

Is there any coincidence to the fact this happened on our election day here in Canada, where Harper is strongly aligned with Obama and the ongoing war in Afghanistan?

Highly unlikely. Then it would probably have happened a few days earlier, to let people have a chance to change their minds if they might.


Holy shit!! They threw the body in the sea!! What were they thinking!!??

Being nasty and very simply practical. Showcasing that "this is how you end up if you behave nasty against USA", denying followers the chance to create a place of pilgrimage and any body to make "relics" of.
They were intentionally being not nice to make the point, or rather several points.


This all smells very "fishy" to me. It is possible they finally got him, but its also equally possible this is another conspiracy at work.

Ehm... Another? :D
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Re: Bin Laden Dead

Postby Hammer_Time » Tue May 03, 2011 12:04 am

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least. No good deed goes unpunished...

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Re: Bin Laden Dead

Postby <R.t..>^>Fusionc » Tue May 03, 2011 5:14 am



Kinda funny how some posters are defending the cheersleaders >_> Thanks for the link.
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Re: Bin Laden Dead

Postby Sauron_Daz » Tue May 03, 2011 6:18 am

They could have gotten one of his many doubles, no way to (dis)prove that now..
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Re: Bin Laden Dead

Postby Fuzz » Tue May 03, 2011 7:11 am

I can't imagine his doubles get to live in big compounds with 5m high walls.
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Re: Bin Laden Dead

Postby Sauron_Daz » Tue May 03, 2011 9:20 am

I can imagine that, but in reality...
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Re: Bin Laden Dead

Postby Akram » Tue May 03, 2011 10:09 am

Throwing a body into the sea for no good reason is not ok in Islam despite what the White House said. Saudi Arabia seems not willing to accept his body and frankly.....this was the best option....

For the meanwhile the US has to revise itself and see how it was responsible for huge miseries and crimes around the world because if Ibn Laden deserved such death.....well...do the calculations.
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Re: Bin Laden Dead

Postby Sauron_Daz » Tue May 03, 2011 11:22 pm

You think it possible it wasn't Osama they threw in the sea?
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Re: Bin Laden Dead

Postby Hammer_Time » Tue May 03, 2011 11:28 pm

The news says that nobody wanted his body ( especially not his birth country of Saudi Arabia ) for fear of it being dug up and desecrated, or other problems like that. So USA decided it best to dispose of his body where nobody can ever get to it or cause problems around it ever again in the future. That makes sense actually.

It's still possible the whole thing was faked using a body double, but I am beginning to doubt that theory now. I believe they really got him.
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Re: Bin Laden Dead

Postby Fuzz » Wed May 04, 2011 4:37 am

clone wrote:personally I found it all very odd, U.S claims they killed him then dump the body at sea??????!!!!!

WTF?

when Saddam's boys were killed they paraded them through Iraq as a symbol, Saddam they put through the process of a trial that took almost a year before they hanged him yet after killing Osama by shooting him in the head?? 2 X's and then flying his body immediately out to see to dump it in the drink?

in the end it's not a change and little more than a symbol or a flag being changed.


I think the difference there is that Saddam was tried by his people for crimes against his people. Bin Laden didn't really have any "people" and the crimes he committed were against the US. Its not like they could take him home and have a trial that wouldn't have left the govt. embarrassed. If I were the dude in charge, I probably would have done the same thing.
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Re: Bin Laden Dead

Postby Hammer_Time » Wed May 04, 2011 6:08 am

This article will no doubt piss you off:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? ... &aid=24587

Osama bin Laden’s Second Death


by Dr. Paul Craig Roberts

Global Research, May 2, 2011

If today were April 1 and not May 2, we could dismiss as an April fool’s joke this morning’s headline that Osama bin Laden was killed in a firefight in Pakistan and quickly buried at sea. As it is, we must take it as more evidence that the US government has unlimited belief in the gullibility of Americans.

Think about it. What are the chances that a person allegedly suffering from kidney disease and requiring dialysis and, in addition, afflicted with diabetes and low blood pressure, survived in mountain hideaways for a decade? If bin Laden was able to acquire dialysis equipment and medical care that his condition required, would not the shipment of dialysis equipment point to his location? Why did it take ten years to find him?

Consider also the claims, repeated by a triumphalist US media celebrating bin Laden’s death, that “bin Laden used his millions to bankroll terrorist training camps in Sudan, the Philippines, and Afghanistan, sending ‘holy warriors’ to foment revolution and fight with fundamentalist Muslim forces across North Africa, in Chechnya, Tajikistan and Bosnia.” That’s a lot of activity for mere millions to bankroll (perhaps the US should have put him in charge of the Pentagon), but the main question is: how was bin Laden able to move his money about? What banking system was helping him? The US government succeeds in seizing the assets of people and of entire countries, Libya being the most recent. Why not bin Laden’s? Was he carrying around with him $100 million dollars in gold coins and sending emissaries to distribute payments to his far-flung operations?

This morning’s headline has the odor of a staged event. The smell reeks from the triumphalist news reports loaded with exaggerations, from celebrants waving flags and chanting “USA USA.” Could something else be going on?

No doubt President Obama is in desperate need of a victory. He committed the fool’s error or restarting the war in Afghanistan, and now after a decade of fighting the US faces stalemate, if not defeat. The wars of the Bush/Obama regimes have bankrupted the US, leaving huge deficits and a declining dollar in their wake. And re-election time is approaching.

The various lies and deceptions, such as “weapons of mass destruction,” of the last several administrations had terrible consequences for the US and the world. But not all deceptions are the same. Remember, the entire reason for invading Afghanistan in the first place was to get bin Laden. Now that President Obama has declared bin Laden to have been shot in the head by US special forces operating in an independent country and buried at sea, there is no reason for continuing the war.

Perhaps the precipitous decline in the US dollar in foreign exchange markets has forced some real budget reductions, which can only come from stopping the open-ended wars. Until the decline of the dollar reached the breaking point, Osama bin Laden, who many experts believe to have been dead for years, was a useful bogyman to use to feed the profits of the US military/security complex.


I think they really got him, but the above article does raise a few interesting points. I believe he paid off Pakistani officials long ago to "look the other way" and let him hide in that compound.

Let us not forget Osama's real background here either:

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=20958


This article summarizes earlier writings by the author on 9/11 and the role of Al Qaeda in US foreign policy. For further details see Michel Chossudovsky, America's "War on Terrorism", Global Research, 2005

"The United States spent millions of dollars to supply Afghan schoolchildren with textbooks filled with violent images and militant Islamic teachings....The primers, which were filled with talk of jihad and featured drawings of guns, bullets, soldiers and mines, have served since then as the Afghan school system's core curriculum. Even the Taliban used the American-produced books,..", (Washington Post, 23 March 2002)

"Advertisements, paid for from CIA funds, were placed in newspapers and newsletters around the world offering inducements and motivations to join the [Islamic] Jihad." (Pervez Hoodbhoy, Peace Research, 1 May 2005)

"Bin Laden recruited 4,000 volunteers from his own country and developed close relations with the most radical mujahideen leaders. He also worked closely with the CIA, ... Since September 11, [2001] CIA officials have been claiming they had no direct link to bin Laden." (Phil Gasper, International Socialist Review, November-December 2001)

Highlights

-Osama bin Laden, America's bogyman, was recruited by the CIA in 1979 at the very outset of the US sponsored jihad. He was 22 years old and was trained in a CIA sponsored guerilla training camp.

-The architects of the covert operation in support of "Islamic fundamentalism" launched during the Reagan presidency played a key role in launching the "Global War on Terrorism" in the wake of 9/11.

- President Ronald Reagan met the leaders of the Islamic Jihad at the White House in 1985

-Under the Reagan adminstration, US foreign policy evolved towards the unconditional support and endorsement of the Islamic "freedom fighters". In today's World, the "freedom fighters" are labelled "Islamic terrorists".

-In the Pashtun language, the word "Taliban" means "Students", or graduates of the madrasahs (places of learning or coranic schools) set up by the Wahhabi missions from Saudi Arabia, with the support of the CIA.

-Education in Afghanistan in the years preceding the Soviet-Afghan war was largely secular. The US covert education destroyed secular education. The number of CIA sponsored religious schools (madrasahs) increased from 2,500 in 1980 to over 39,000.


The Soviet-Afghan war was part of a CIA covert agenda initiated during the Carter administration, which consisted in actively supporting and financing the Islamic brigades, later known as Al Qaeda.

The Pakistani military regime played from the outset in the late 1970s, a key role in the US sponsored military and intelligence operations in Afghanistan. In the post-Cold war era, this central role of Pakistan in US intelligence operations was extended to the broader Central Asia- Middle East region. From the outset of the Soviet Afghan war in 1979, Pakistan under military rule actively supported the Islamic brigades. In close liaison with the CIA, Pakistan's military intelligence, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), became a powerful organization, a parallel government, wielding tremendous power and influence.

America's covert war in Afghanistan, using Pakistan as a launch pad, was initiated during the Carter administration prior to the Soviet "invasion":

"According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahideen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention." (Former National Security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski, Interview with Le Nouvel Observateur, 15-21 January 1998)

In the published memoirs of Defense Secretary Robert Gates, who held the position of deputy CIA Director at the height of the Soviet Afghan war, US intelligence was directly involved from the outset, prior to the Soviet invasion, in channeling aid to the Islamic brigades.


Concluding Remarks

These various "terrorist" organizations were created as a result of CIA support. They are not the product of religion. The project to establish "a pan-Islamic Caliphate" is part of a carefully devised intelligence operation.

CIA support to Al Qaeda was not in any way curtailed at the end of the Cold War. In fact quite the opposite. The earlier pattern of covert support took on a global thrust and became increasingly sophisticated.

The "Global War on Terrorism" is a complex and intricate intelligence construct. The covert support provided to "Islamic extremist groups" is part of an imperial agenda. It purports to weaken and eventually destroy secular and civilian governmental institutions, while also contributing to vilifying Islam. It is an instrument of colonization which seeks to undermine sovereign nation-states and transform countries into territories.

For the intelligence operation to be successful, however, the various Islamic organizations created and trained by the CIA must remain unaware of the role they are performing on the geopolitical chessboard, on behalf of Washington.


Over the years, these organizations have indeed acquired a certain degree of autonomy and independence, in relation to their US-Pakistani sponsors. That appearance of "independence", however, is crucial; it is an integral part of the covert intelligence operation. According to former CIA agent Milton Beardman the Mujahideen were invariably unaware of the role they were performing on behalf of Washington. In the words of bin Laden (quoted by Beardman): "neither I, nor my brothers saw evidence of American help". (Weekend Sunday (NPR); Eric Weiner, Ted Clark; 16 August 1998).

"Motivated by nationalism and religious fervor, the Islamic warriors were unaware that they were fighting the Soviet Army on behalf of Uncle Sam. While there were contacts at the upper levels of the intelligence hierarchy, Islamic rebel leaders in theatre had no contacts with Washington or the CIA." (Michel Chossudovsky, America's War on Terrorism, Chapter 2).

The fabrication of "terrorism" --including covert support to terrorists-- is required to provide legitimacy to the "war on terrorism".

The various fundamentalist and paramilitary groups involved in US sponsored "terrorist" activities are "intelligence assets". In the wake of 9/11, their designated function as "intelligence assets" is to perform their role as credible "enemies of America".

Under the Bush administration, the CIA continued to support (via Pakistan's ISI) several Pakistani based Islamic groups. The ISI is known to support Jamaat a-Islami, which is also present in South East Asia, Lashkar-e-Tayya­ba, Jehad a-Kashmiri, Hizbul-Mujahidin and Jaish-e-Mohammed.

The Islamic groups created by the CIA are also intended to rally public support in Muslim countries. The underlying objective is to create divisions within national societies throughout the Middle East and Central Asia, while also triggering sectarian strife within Islam, ultimately with a view to curbing the development of a broad based secular mass resistance, which would challenge US imperial ambitions.

This function of an outside enemy is also an essential part of war propaganda required to galvanize Western public opinion. Without an enemy, a war cannot be fought. US foreign policy needs to fabricate an enemy, to justify its various military interventions in the Middle East and Central Asia. An enemy is required to justify a military agenda, which consists in " going after Al Qaeda". The fabrication and vilification of the enemy are required to justify military action.

The existence of an outside enemy sustains the illusion that the "war on terrorism" is real. It justifies and presents military intervention as a humanitarian operation based on the right to self-defense. It upholds the illusion of a "conflict of civilizations". The underlying purpose ultimately is to conceal the real economic and strategic objectives behind the broader Middle East Central Asian war.


Historically, Pakistan has played a central role in "war on terrorism". Pakistan constitutes from Washington's standpoint a geopolitical hub. It borders onto Afghanistan and Iran. It has played a crucial role in the conduct of US and allied military operations in Afghanistan as well as in the context of the Pentagon's war plans in relation to Iran.


There is more to the article, but it is quite clear that USA itself had a major hand in shaping Islamic Fundamentalism over the years.
The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least. No good deed goes unpunished...

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